Cornwall Commmunity Forum
The Cornwall Community Forum on YahooGroups has been periodically infected with venomous anti-Israel posts by Gale Toensing. PRIMER's president, Alan Stein, was contacted by a member of the Cornwall community who wanted some help inoculating the forum.
PRIMER's president joined the group. His response to one of Toensing's posts set off a firestorm of criticism demonstrating an amazing amount of irrational hatred for Israel. As this is being posted, the Israel-haters are trying to kill th messenger.
The posts on the Cornwall Community Network are available only to members of the group, but the relevant messages are posted below. They will continue to be posted here for at least a short time.
4a. I think this is a reasonable request
Posted by: "Gale Toensing" gtoensing@comcast.net bintdeeb
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:06 am ((PST))
What do you think?
--Gale Courey Toensing
Christians in Jerusalem want Jews to stop spitting on them
www.thecornerreport
4b. Re: I think this is a reasonable request
Posted by: "Paul Baren" pbaren2@optonline.net pbaren2
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:47 am ((PST))
There are crazies all over the world--unfortunately
Paul Baren
Original Message
From: Gale Toensing
To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 2:06 PM
Subject: [cornwall_community_network] I think this is a reasonable request
What do you think?
--Gale Courey Toensing
Christians in Jerusalem want Jews to stop spitting on them
www.thecornerreport
4c. Re: I think this is a reasonable request
Posted by: "alansteinct" a.stein@snet.net alansteinct
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:34 pm ((PST))
More seriously, Jews in Jerusalem (and elsewhere in Israel) want Palestinian Arabs to stop
murdering them. Most particularly, the Jews living in Sderot, a town at which Arab terrorists
in the last few years have launched more Kassam missiles than there are families living there,
want their children to be able to go to kindergarten without having to worry about them
being blown up in the school playground.
In cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com, "Gale Toensing"
wrote:
>
> What do you think?
> --Gale Courey Toensing
> Christians in Jerusalem want Jews to stop spitting on them
> www.thecornerreport
4d. Re: I think this is a reasonable request
Posted by: "Gale Toensing" gtoensing@comcast.net bintdeeb
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:17 pm ((PST))
Alan Stein! Imagine you turning up here!
There is a term for accusing others of what you yourself do -- it's called projection.
But then what else would one expect from people whose Zionist ideology is based on the belief that it's okay to kill people and steal their land?
--Gale Courey Toensing
And why was this person' allowed to post without signing his name like everyone else?
Original Message
From: alansteinct
To: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 8:34 PM
Subject: [cornwall_community_network] Re: I think this is a reasonable request
More seriously, Jews in Jerusalem (and elsewhere in Israel) want Palestinian Arabs to stop
murdering them. Most particularly, the Jews living in Sderot, a town at which Arab terrorists
in the last few years have launched more Kassam missiles than there are families living there,
want their children to be able to go to kindergarten without having to worry about them
being blown up in the school playground.
In cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com, "Gale Toensing"
wrote:
>
> What do you think?
> --Gale Courey Toensing
> Christians in Jerusalem want Jews to stop spitting on them
> www.thecornerreport
>
1a. Hello
Posted by: "Jane Bean" davejane@optonline.net davejane06753
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:05 am ((PST))
Hi Alan:
I don't know you, but am glad to hear your voice. We spend some time "bickering" with Gale over this horrible mess, but because she knows way too much and I know way too little (excpet what I can glean from my ex-Israeli brother in law), I can't argue cogently with her about the Israelis and Arabs. So, a welcome voice from the "other side" is welcome.
Shalom
Jane Bean
1b. Re: Hello
Posted by: "Gale Toensing" gtoensing@comcast.net bintdeeb
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:44 am ((PST))
Jane, you are so good hearted, but extremely naive in your effort to be "balanced" and about shape shifting tricksters who appear to be what they are not..
You can tell a lot about a person by the company he or she keeps or defends -- in this case, the likes of:
-- Alan "Islamo-fascism Awareness Week" and "Torture can be Justified" Dershowitz (http://www.alandershowitz.com)
-- Campus Watch http://www.campus-watch.org
--the ADL www.adl.org.
You could check out what Stein writes about at his blog http://primerct.blogspot.com/ including his toxic accusations of "anti-Semitism" and his allegations about the First Congregational Church of Lyme and its pastor, Rev. David Goode's "Tree of Life" events. You could check out what Stein and others of his ilk did to fomer DePaul University Professr Norman Finkelstein http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/ and Columbia Professor Joseph Massad http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2006/787/op35.htm under the guide of "freedom of speech" and "acadmic freedom."
I don't hink anyone can ever "know too much." but if, as you say, you know way too little, why not educate yourself and find out more? Check your mail next week. I'm sending you a copy of "The Iron Wall" by the esteemed Israeli historian Avi Schlaim, a professor of international relations at the University of Oxford and widely viewed as one of the world's leading authorities on the Israeli-Arab conflct. . It's a good impeccable place to start.
--Gale Courey Toensing
Original Message
From: Jane Bean
To: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 10:06 AM
Subject: [cornwall_community_network] Hello
Hi Alan:
I don't know you, but am glad to hear your voice. We spend some time "bickering" with Gale over this horrible mess, but because she knows way too much and I know way too little (excpet what I can glean from my ex-Israeli brother in law), I can't argue cogently with her about the Israelis and Arabs. So, a welcome voice from the "other side" is welcome.
Shalom
Jane Bean
1c. Re: Hello
Posted by: "gunnwelles" gunnwelles@yahoo.com gunnwelles
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:54 am ((PST))
Being one like Jane,that perhaps does not know all on this subject,I
find it difficult to follow the threads. I try to learn as much as I
can. That being said I was wondering how you all feel about the
book, "Exile" by Richard North Patterson. My Uncle just read it and
thought it was a good work of fiction that was well researched and
provided him with more insight.It's a story of a Palestinian woman
and a Jewish man, brought together again over the assassination of
the prime minister of Isreal. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
L.Welles
In cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com, "Gale Toensing"
>
> Jane, you are so good hearted, but extremely naive in your effort
to be "balanced" and about shape shifting tricksters who appear to be
what they are not..
> You can tell a lot about a person by the company he or she keeps or
defends -- in this case, the likes of:
> -- Alan "Islamo-fascism Awareness Week" and "Torture can be
Justified" Dershowitz (http://www.alandershowitz.com)
> -- Campus Watch http://www.campus-watch.org
> --the ADL www.adl.org.
> You could check out what Stein writes about at his blog
http://primerct.blogspot.com/ including his toxic accusations
of "anti-Semitism" and his allegations about the First
Congregational Church of Lyme and its pastor, Rev. David
Goode's "Tree of Life" events. You could check out what Stein and
others of his ilk did to fomer DePaul University Professr Norman
Finkelstein http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/ and Columbia Professor
Joseph Massad http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2006/787/op35.htm under the
guide of "freedom of speech" and "acadmic freedom."
>
> I don't hink anyone can ever "know too much." but if, as you say,
you know way too little, why not educate yourself and find out more?
Check your mail next week. I'm sending you a copy of "The Iron Wall"
by the esteemed Israeli historian Avi Schlaim, a professor of
international relations at the University of Oxford and widely viewed
as one of the world's leading authorities on the Israeli-Arab
conflct. . It's a good impeccable place to start.
>
> --Gale Courey Toensing
>
>
Original Message
> From: Jane Bean
> To: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 10:06 AM
> Subject: [cornwall_community_network] Hello
>
>
>
> Hi Alan:
> I don't know you, but am glad to hear your voice. We spend some
time "bickering" with Gale over this horrible mess, but because she
knows way too much and I know way too little (excpet what I can glean
from my ex-Israeli brother in law), I can't argue cogently with her
about the Israelis and Arabs. So, a welcome voice from the "other
side" is welcome.
>
> Shalom
>
> Jane Bean
>
1d. Re: Hello
Posted by: "Alan Stein" a.stein@snet.net alansteinct
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:30 pm ((PST))
Jane Bean wrote:
>Hi Alan:
>I don't know you, but am glad to hear your voice. We spend some time
>"bickering" with Gale over this horrible mess, but because she knows
>way too much and I know way too little (excpet what I can glean from
>my ex-Israeli brother in law), I can't argue cogently with her about
>the Israelis and Arabs. So, a welcome voice from the "other side" is
>welcome.
Thanks for the welcome.
It's really not that hard to respond to the lies and distortions the other side brings to the Arab-Israeli conflict. There are lots of resources easily available which reference the most common myths and explain the true facts. We have a list of some resources on our PRIMER web site,
Perhaps the single most useful resource is the online version of Myths & Facts
This topic reminds me of a question I have that's unrelated to the Arab-Israeli conflict. It's not really about Cornwall, either, but it's in the neighborhood so I thought someone might have the answer.
I used to love to go to a place in Canaan I think was called "2 Sisters Cafe." It sold frozen yogurt, which it mixed together with any of a large number of flavors of your choice. (Sort of like a mix-in, but with yogurt rather than ice cream.) I generally stopped there on the way back from a concert at Tanglewood, but it usually seemed to be closed. Then it seemed to have moved down the block, but the last time I passed by it seemed to be completely gone. I wonder whether it still exists.
The reason I was reminded of it was the following experience related to one policy of the Israeli government which should be criticized.
Last spring, while visiting Israel for a family wedding, my wife and I were walking around the Mahane Yehuda market in Jerusalem, a favorite target of suicide bombers, when I got a call (a cell phone is a necessity when visiting Israel) from a cousin who I had hoped would meet us there. She, however, wanted to go straight to the Temple Mount, so we arranged to meet later. Unfortunately, she couldn't visit the Temple Mount, which for Jews is the holiest place on earth, because the Israeli government has caved in to outside pressure and generally bars Jews. We did wind up meeting her later by The Wall.
Meanwhile, we got a call from our daughter, who had just flown in from Boston and was walking around less than a block from where we were. She decided she wanted some yogurt and insisted we go with her to her favorite yogurt shop in Jerusalem, which happened to be almost on the way to The Wall. It also turned out to have exactly the same machine for mixing yogurt as the shop in Canaan.
Since it's more convenient to go to Canaan, Connecticut to get that yogurt than to fly to Israel, which was once the land of Canaan, I'm wondering whether that yogurt place still exists.
--
Alan H. Stein
a.stein@snet.net
www.alanstein.com
Skype: alanstein
iChat/AIM: alanhstein
1e. Re: Hello
Posted by: "Ttruckr23@aol.com" Ttruckr23@aol.com ttruckr23
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:46 pm ((PST))
In a message dated 11/17/07 6:31:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
a.stein@snet.net writes:
Since it's more convenient to go to Canaan, Connecticut to get that yogurt
than to fly to Israel, which was once the land of Canaan, I'm wondering
whether that yogurt place still exists.
So now John will be able to connect this somehow to the Cadwell, Brokaw,
Rubenstein, Steinbrenner softball conspiracy that has its roots at 1600
Pennsylvania Ave? We've apparently added international intrigue to the recipe for
yogurt too. My, my, how complicated this may get yet.
Dave Becker
TT23- There's no such thing as too much chain......
2a. Re: I think this is a reasonable request
Posted by: "Alan Stein" a.stein@snet.net alansteinct
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:50 am ((PST))
First of all, let me introduce myself. My name is Alan Stein. Although I don't live in Cornwall, I was recently contacted by a resident who was upset about the irresponsible, misleading, even hateful messages being posted here by Ms. Toensing. I am president of PRIMER-Connecticut, a group of volunteers whose acronym stands for its mission, Promoting Responsibility in Middle East Reporting. These days, Internet is a form of media and posts to groups such as this effectively constitute reporting, so trying to correct some of the deception in posts here falls within our mission.
I had not realized my name would not be included when I posted my first message using the web interface for YahooGroups. I will try to remember to include my name in any future posts.
I do think it revealing, however, that Gale complained about my not signing my name; looking through the digest I just received, I noticed a number of other posts did not have names attached yet Gale did not complain about those.
It's interesting that Gale accuses me of "projection." I've noticed critics often falsely accuse Israel of crimes of which its enemies are guilty. In this case, which is full of sad ironies, Gale is the one projecting, since Israel's enemies are the ones who apparently believe it's okay to kill people and steal their land.
It should be remembered that early in this century, when the Zionist pioneers were reclaiming the land, the first thing they had to do when establishing a new settlement was to set up a defense perimeter. They did this even before starting to build their homes, knowing there would be an Arab attack the very first night.
These settlements were built on land the settlers owned. The Arab attackers planned to massacre the owners and take the land, simultaneously discouraging other Jews from legally purchasing land and settling on it.
The Zionist ideology is simply Zionism, the national liberation movement of the Jewish people. It has absolutely nothing to do with killing or taking anyone's land.
"Gale Toensing" gtoensing@comcast.net bintdeeb said:
>Alan Stein! Imagine you turning up here!
>There is a term for accusing others of what you yourself do -- it's
>called projection.
>But then what else would one expect from people whose Zionist
>ideology is based on the belief that it's okay to kill people and
>steal their land?
>
>--Gale Courey Toensing
>
>And why was this person' allowed to post without signing his name
>like everyone else?
--
Alan H. Stein, Ph.D.
President, PRIMER-Connecticut
Promoting Responsibility in Middle East Reporting
alanstein@primerct.org
www.primerct.org
PRIMER Blog: primerct.blogspot.com
Skype: alanstein
iChat/AIM: alanhstein
Recommended Reading: "Israel and the Middle East: A Resource for Journalists"
www.adl.org/israel/Israel_and_the_Middle_East.pdf
2b. Re: I think this is a reasonable request
Posted by: "Hanna Grossman" hannakg@optonline.net hannakg2001
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:26 am ((PST))
Much as I hate to get into this kind of thing, and although I am
Jewish and for much of my life celebrated the existence of Israel,
there are a few points here which we should not let pass unchallenged:
"The early settlers owned the land"-- I am sure they bought it from
somebody, but most of us have had enough education about how American
Indians used and thought of land to recognize that the form o
ownership which the settlers had may not have had any relationship to
the local cultural way of thinking about land.
Whether the system was imposed by the English, or the Ottomans before
them, I do not know, but I very much question whether the local Arabs
understood and accepted it.
Hanna Grossman
On Nov 17, 2007, at 10:49 AM, Alan Stein wrote:
> First of all, let me introduce myself. My name is Alan Stein.
> Although I don't live in Cornwall, I was recently contacted by a
> resident who was upset about the irresponsible, misleading, even
> hateful messages being posted here by Ms. Toensing. I am president
> of PRIMER-Connecticut, a group of volunteers whose acronym stands
> for its mission, Promoting Responsibility in Middle East Reporting.
> These days, Internet is a form of media and posts to groups such as
> this effectively constitute reporting, so trying to correct some of
> the deception in posts here falls within our mission.
>
> I had not realized my name would not be included when I posted my
> first message using the web interface for YahooGroups. I will try
> to remember to include my name in any future posts.
>
> I do think it revealing, however, that Gale complained about my not
> signing my name; looking through the digest I just received, I
> noticed a number of other posts did not have names attached yet
> Gale did not complain about those.
>
> It's interesting that Gale accuses me of "projection." I've noticed
> critics often falsely accuse Israel of crimes of which its enemies
> are guilty. In this case, which is full of sad ironies, Gale is the
> one projecting, since Israel's enemies are the ones who apparently
> believe it's okay to kill people and steal their land.
>
> It should be remembered that early in this century, when the
> Zionist pioneers were reclaiming the land, the first thing they had
> to do when establishing a new settlement was to set up a defense
> perimeter. They did this even before starting to build their homes,
> knowing there would be an Arab attack the very first night.
>
> These settlements were built on land the settlers owned. The Arab
> attackers planned to massacre the owners and take the land,
> simultaneously discouraging other Jews from legally purchasing land
> and settling on it.
>
> The Zionist ideology is simply Zionism, the national liberation
> movement of the Jewish people. It has absolutely nothing to do with
> killing or taking anyone's land.
>
> "Gale Toensing" gtoensing@comcast.net bintdeeb said:
>
> >Alan Stein! Imagine you turning up here!
> >There is a term for accusing others of what you yourself do -- it's
> >called projection.
> >But then what else would one expect from people whose Zionist
> >ideology is based on the belief that it's okay to kill people and
> >steal their land?
> >
> >--Gale Courey Toensing
> >
> >And why was this person' allowed to post without signing his name
> >like everyone else?
>
> --
> Alan H. Stein, Ph.D.
> President, PRIMER-Connecticut
>
> Promoting Responsibility in Middle East Reporting
>
> alanstein@primerct.org
> www.primerct.org
> PRIMER Blog: primerct.blogspot.com
> Skype: alanstein
> iChat/AIM: alanhstein
>
> Recommended Reading: "Israel and the Middle East: A Resource for
> Journalists"
> www.adl.org/israel/Israel_and_the_Middle_East.pdf
>
>
2c. Re: I think this is a reasonable request
Posted by: "Alan Stein" a.stein@snet.net alansteinct
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:31 pm ((PST))
Much of the land that was purchased was purchased from Arabs, who certainly knew what they were doing, but that's besides the point. Banding together to try to massacre new neighbors and take their land is not a friendly act, regardless of how well one understands the laws of land ownership. And remember, these new neighbors generally weren't displacing anyone; much of the land they bought was rocky or swampland nobody else wanted - they just didn't want Jews there.
Hanna Grossman said:
>Much as I hate to get into this kind of thing, and although I am
>Jewish and for much of my life celebrated the existence of Israel,
>there are a few points here which we should not let pass unchallenged:
>
>"The early settlers owned the land"-- I am sure they bought it from
>somebody, but most of us have had enough education about how American
>Indians used and thought of land to recognize that the form o
>ownership which the settlers had may not have had any relationship to
>the local cultural way of thinking about land.
>Whether the system was imposed by the English, or the Ottomans before
>them, I do not know, but I very much question whether the local Arabs
>understood and accepted it.
--
Alan H. Stein
a.stein@snet.net
www.alanstein.com
Skype: alanstein
iChat/AIM: alanhstein
2d. Re: I think this is a reasonable request
Posted by: "savinbrian" siwanoy@aol.com savinbrian
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:11 pm ((PST))
Alan
Your assertion of fair business negotiation in the "sale" of Arab land
in Israel at that time and under those circumstances is at best naive
and at worst can be attacked as dishonest. As a practical matter, in
my opinion, your posts can only exacerbate strong negative feelings in
a difficultly confused situation. Kill it. If you want to be
persuasive, I suggest you start by reading President Carter's book,
and graduate from there to the many works of current Israeli Arab
professors. I'll be pleased to provide a reading list of serious
analysts.
Regards,
Brian Savin
In cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com, Alan Stein
>
> Much of the land that was purchased was purchased from Arabs, who
certainly knew what they were doing, but that's besides the point.
Banding together to try to massacre new neighbors and take their land
is not a friendly act, regardless of how well one understands the laws
of land ownership. And remember, these new neighbors generally weren't
displacing anyone; much of the land they bought was rocky or swampland
nobody else wanted - they just didn't want Jews there.
>
>
> Hanna Grossman said:
>
> >Much as I hate to get into this kind of thing, and although I am
> >Jewish and for much of my life celebrated the existence of Israel,
> >there are a few points here which we should not let pass unchallenged:
> >
> >"The early settlers owned the land"-- I am sure they bought it from
> >somebody, but most of us have had enough education about how American
> >Indians used and thought of land to recognize that the form o
> >ownership which the settlers had may not have had any relationship to
> >the local cultural way of thinking about land.
> >Whether the system was imposed by the English, or the Ottomans before
> >them, I do not know, but I very much question whether the local Arabs
> >understood and accepted it.
>
> --
>
> Alan H. Stein
> a.stein@...
> www.alanstein.com
>
> Skype: alanstein
> iChat/AIM: alanhstein
3a. Alan Stein
Posted by: "John Miller" JLM186@OPTONLINE.NET john_miller384
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:33 pm ((PST))
It looks like we have a local (CT) AIPAC with us in the person of Stein. These guys will stop at nothing to silence and discredit anyone who has ANY sympathy for the Palestinians or who thinks anything the Israelis do is bad. If you're a non-Jew you are labeled antisemite. If you are Jewish, your are self-hating or some sort of traitor. They have intimidated almost the entire Congress. Who in Washington dares question anything visa-a-vis Israel? I lump them in the same catagory as their good friends, the Christian Right. They are no less scary. I would love to know who the unnamed person is who was upset by Gale's pronouncements here and invited Stein to come in and speak for him/her. Why not speak for yourself. Once in a while Gale goes off the deep end (Israelis spitting at Christians) but I think she's mostly right. And keep in mind that Gale has been to the Middle East and seen much of the bad stuff herself. It has gotten so bad that criticism of Israel makes you a holocaust supporter. The Israelis do what they want to do. If someone speaks up for the Palestinians, watch out.
Gale sighted what happened to Professor Finklestein at DePaul University. How about Pro. John Mearsheimer of Chicago and Pro. Stephen Walt of Harvard. They wrote a terrific book called "The Israeli Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy" or how that lobby or AIPAC has a pernicious influence on our foreign policy. A major effort continues to discredit them. I am a secular Jew, which still makes me a Jew. I am proud of the immense contribution of Jews to American culture in writing, music, performance, the movies, television, the fine arts. You name it.
But I am greatly troubled by Israeli policy and blind Jewish-American support of it. As an American I have never bought the idea of My Country, Right or Wrong. If we are wrong--such as the
immoral illegal was in Iraq--then you say so loudly. Same with being a Jew when Israel policy is illegal and immoral. Speak out and don't flinch when the Dershowitzes and Steins put you down.
John Miller
3b. Re: Alan Stein
Posted by: "Phyllis Nauts" pnauts@optonline.net pnauts
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:39 pm ((PST))
Thank you, John, for putting it so well. Iām curious about the unnamed
person also.
Phyllis Nauts
Original Message
From: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Miller
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 3:35 PM
To: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [cornwall_community_network] Alan Stein
It looks like we have a local (CT) AIPAC with us in the person of Stein.
These guys will stop at nothing to silence and discredit anyone who has ANY
sympathy for the Palestinians or who thinks anything the Israelis do is bad.
If you're a non-Jew you are labeled antisemite. If you are Jewish, your are
self-hating or some sort of traitor. They have intimidated almost the entire
Congress. Who in Washington dares question anything visa-a-vis Israel? I
lump them in the same catagory as their good friends, the Christian Right.
They are no less scary. I would love to know who the unnamed person is who
was upset by Gale's pronouncements here and invited Stein to come in and
speak for him/her. Why not speak for yourself. Once in a while Gale goes off
the deep end (Israelis spitting at Christians) but I think she's mostly
right. And keep in mind that Gale has been to the Middle East and seen much
of the bad stuff herself. It has gotten so bad that criticism of Israel
makes you a holocaust supporter. The Israelis do what they want to do. If
someone speaks up for the Palestinians, watch out.
Gale sighted what happened to Professor Finklestein at DePaul University.
How about Pro. John Mearsheimer of Chicago and Pro. Stephen Walt of Harvard.
They wrote a terrific book called "The Israeli Lobby and U.S. Foreign
Policy" or how that lobby or AIPAC has a pernicious influence on our foreign
policy. A major effort continues to discredit them. I am a secular Jew,
which still makes me a Jew. I am proud of the immense contribution of Jews
to American culture in writing, music, performance, the movies, television,
the fine arts. You name it.
But I am greatly troubled by Israeli policy and blind Jewish-American
support of it. As an American I have never bought the idea of My Country,
Right or Wrong. If we are wrong--such as the
immoral illegal was in Iraq--then you say so loudly. Same with being a Jew
when Israel policy is illegal and immoral. Speak out and don't flinch when
the Dershowitzes and Steins put you down.
John Miller
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8:57 PM
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3c. Re: Alan Stein
Posted by: "John Miller" JLM186@OPTONLINE.NET john_miller384
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 1:54 pm ((PST))
He's not "unnamed." Take another look. JM
Original Message
From: Phyllis Nauts
To: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 3:42 PM
Subject: RE: [cornwall_community_network] Alan Stein
Thank you, John, for putting it so well. Iām curious about the unnamed person also.
Phyllis Nauts
Original Message
From: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Miller
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 3:35 PM
To: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [cornwall_community_network] Alan Stein
It looks like we have a local (CT) AIPAC with us in the person of Stein. These guys will stop at nothing to silence and discredit anyone who has ANY sympathy for the Palestinians or who thinks anything the Israelis do is bad. If you're a non-Jew you are labeled antisemite. If you are Jewish, your are self-hating or some sort of traitor. They have intimidated almost the entire Congress. Who in Washington dares question anything visa-a-vis Israel? I lump them in the same catagory as their good friends, the Christian Right. They are no less scary. I would love to know who the unnamed person is who was upset by Gale's pronouncements here and invited Stein to come in and speak for him/her. Why not speak for yourself. Once in a while Gale goes off the deep end (Israelis spitting at Christians) but I think she's mostly right. And keep in mind that Gale has been to the Middle East and seen much of the bad stuff herself. It has gotten so bad that criticism of Israel makes you a holocaust supporter. The Israelis do what they want to do. If someone speaks up for the Palestinians, watch out.
Gale sighted what happened to Professor Finklestein at DePaul University. How about Pro. John Mearsheimer of Chicago and Pro. Stephen Walt of Harvard. They wrote a terrific book called "The Israeli Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy" or how that lobby or AIPAC has a pernicious influence on our foreign policy. A major effort continues to discredit them. I am a secular Jew, which still makes me a Jew. I am proud of the immense contribution of Jews to American culture in writing, music, performance, the movies, television, the fine arts. You name it.
But I am greatly troubled by Israeli policy and blind Jewish-American support of it. As an American I have never bought the idea of My Country, Right or Wrong. If we are wrong--such as the
immoral illegal was in Iraq--then you say so loudly. Same with being a Jew when Israel policy is illegal and immoral. Speak out and don't flinch when the Dershowitzes and Steins put you down.
John Miller
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3d. Re: Alan Stein
Posted by: "Paul Baren" pbaren2@optonline.net pbaren2
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:03 pm ((PST))
John
Right on--you put it very clearly.
Unfortunately very few of any persuasion speak up about this problem--and certainly no politician.
And all the talk of Iran and Iraq and the rest of the Middle East will not solve anything until we settle the Israeli/Palestine mess.
And what can we do about Joe ? I hope we can at least indicate our displeasure somehow!
Paul Baren
Original Message
From: Phyllis Nauts
To: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 3:42 PM
Subject: RE: [cornwall_community_network] Alan Stein
Thank you, John, for putting it so well. Iām curious about the unnamed person also.
Phyllis Nauts
Original Message
From: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Miller
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 3:35 PM
To: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [cornwall_community_network] Alan Stein
It looks like we have a local (CT) AIPAC with us in the person of Stein. These guys will stop at nothing to silence and discredit anyone who has ANY sympathy for the Palestinians or who thinks anything the Israelis do is bad. If you're a non-Jew you are labeled antisemite. If you are Jewish, your are self-hating or some sort of traitor. They have intimidated almost the entire Congress. Who in Washington dares question anything visa-a-vis Israel? I lump them in the same catagory as their good friends, the Christian Right. They are no less scary. I would love to know who the unnamed person is who was upset by Gale's pronouncements here and invited Stein to come in and speak for him/her. Why not speak for yourself. Once in a while Gale goes off the deep end (Israelis spitting at Christians) but I think she's mostly right. And keep in mind that Gale has been to the Middle East and seen much of the bad stuff herself. It has gotten so bad that criticism of Israel makes you a holocaust supporter. The Israelis do what they want to do. If someone speaks up for the Palestinians, watch out.
Gale sighted what happened to Professor Finklestein at DePaul University. How about Pro. John Mearsheimer of Chicago and Pro. Stephen Walt of Harvard. They wrote a terrific book called "The Israeli Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy" or how that lobby or AIPAC has a pernicious influence on our foreign policy. A major effort continues to discredit them. I am a secular Jew, which still makes me a Jew. I am proud of the immense contribution of Jews to American culture in writing, music, performance, the movies, television, the fine arts. You name it.
But I am greatly troubled by Israeli policy and blind Jewish-American support of it. As an American I have never bought the idea of My Country, Right or Wrong. If we are wrong--such as the
immoral illegal was in Iraq--then you say so loudly. Same with being a Jew when Israel policy is illegal and immoral. Speak out and don't flinch when the Dershowitzes and Steins put you down.
John Miller
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3e. Re: Alan Stein
Posted by: "Mr Marshall Miles" mmiles_06039@yahoo.com mmiles_06039
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:11 pm ((PST))
Until WE settle the mess....thats just what we need...we helped create the mess to begin with....
Original Message
From: Paul Baren
To: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 5:03:12 PM
Subject: Re: [cornwall_community_network] Alan Stein
John
Right on--you put it very clearly.
Unfortunately very few of any persuasion speak up about this problem--and certainly no politician.
And all the talk of Iran and Iraq and the rest of the Middle East will not solve anything until we settle the Israeli/Palestine mess.
And what can we do about Joe ? I hope we can at least indicate our displeasure somehow!
Paul Baren
Original Message
From: Phyllis Nauts
To: cornwall_community_ network@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 3:42 PM
Subject: RE: [cornwall_community _network] Alan Stein
Thank you, John, for putting it so well. I¢m curious about the unnamed person also.
Phyllis Nauts
Original Message
From: cornwall_community_ network@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:cornwall_ community_ network@yahoogro ups.com] On Behalf Of John Miller
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 3:35 PM
To: cornwall_community_ network@yahoogro ups.com
Subject: [cornwall_community _network] Alan Stein
It looks like we have a local (CT) AIPAC with us in the person of Stein. These guys will stop at nothing to silence and discredit anyone who has ANY sympathy for the Palestinians or who thinks anything the Israelis do is bad. If you're a non-Jew you are labeled antisemite. If you are Jewish, your are self-hating or some sort of traitor. They have intimidated almost the entire Congress. Who in Washington dares question anything visa-a-vis Israel? I lump them in the same catagory as their good friends, the Christian Right. They are no less scary. I would love to know who the unnamed person is who was upset by Gale's pronouncements here and invited Stein to come in and speak for him/her. Why not speak for yourself. Once in a while Gale goes off the deep end (Israelis spitting at Christians) but I think she's mostly right. And keep in mind that Gale has been to the Middle East and seen much of the bad stuff herself. It has gotten so bad that criticism of
Israel makes you a holocaust supporter. The Israelis do what they want to do. If someone speaks up for the Palestinians, watch out.
Gale sighted what happened to Professor Finklestein at DePaul University. How about Pro. John Mearsheimer of Chicago and Pro. Stephen Walt of Harvard. They wrote a terrific book called "The Israeli Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy" or how that lobby or AIPAC has a pernicious influence on our foreign policy. A major effort continues to discredit them. I am a secular Jew, which still makes me a Jew. I am proud of the immense contribution of Jews to American culture in writing, music, performance, the movies, television, the fine arts. You name it.
But I am greatly troubled by Israeli policy and blind Jewish-American support of it. As an American I have never bought the idea of My Country, Right or Wrong. If we are wrong--such as the
immoral illegal was in Iraq--then you say so loudly. Same with being a Jew when Israel policy is illegal and immoral. Speak out and don't flinch when the Dershowitzes and Steins put you down.
John Miller
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3f. Re: Alan Stein
Posted by: "Anne Baren" pbaren@optonline.net abaren2002
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:22 pm ((PST))
John -
Thank you for your calm, reasoned general comment. I welcome both
pro-Israeli and pro-Paestinian comments, but not diatribes.
Unfortunately, I find that Gale Toensing has become so shrill and so
one-sided that I simply delete without reading. A pity. Hope Alan Stein
doesn't turn up to be the same. I wish more people would risk commenting
on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Did you listen to the Democratic
debate Thursday night? There was only one mention - by either Biden or
Richardson, can't remember which - about the idea that this might be an
important problem. It really IS the elephant in the room, isn't it?
Anne Baren
3g. Re: Alan Stein
Posted by: "John Miller" JLM186@OPTONLINE.NET john_miller384
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:44 pm ((PST))
Anne, No Democrat (or Republican) running for the White House dares say anything negative about Israel. They won't even use the term "even-handed" or refer to a Palestinian state. Remember what happened to Hillary around 1993 when she and either Mrs. Arafat or Mrs. Sadat kissed each other and Hils mentioned "two states." All hell broke loose and she quickly backtracked. And then when she ran for the senate in NY in 2000 not a mention of the Palestinians, but much love for Israel and the Israelis. If she had had the guts to stick with her first thought on the subject I would be in her corner right now. Trouble is she might not have been elected to the senate and that would mean no run for the White House in 07/08. JohnM
Original Message
From: Anne Baren
To: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 5:20 PM
Subject: Re: [cornwall_community_network] Alan Stein
John -
Thank you for your calm, reasoned general comment. I welcome both
pro-Israeli and pro-Paestinian comments, but not diatribes.
Unfortunately, I find that Gale Toensing has become so shrill and so
one-sided that I simply delete without reading. A pity. Hope Alan Stein
doesn't turn up to be the same. I wish more people would risk commenting
on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Did you listen to the Democratic
debate Thursday night? There was only one mention - by either Biden or
Richardson, can't remember which - about the idea that this might be an
important problem. It really IS the elephant in the room, isn't it?
Anne Baren
4a. Stein
Posted by: "Jane Bean" davejane@optonline.net davejane06753
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:51 pm ((PST))
I think, in the ancient and near past, people who have had a thesis of some kind, usually religious, were expected to go before an assembled group of scholars and peers, in order to have their ideas examined. In some churches it's usually a group of six or seven individuals who have some credence in that community.
Here in Cornwall we have.....well, Cornwall. It's disheartening to think someone like Mr. Stein can sound so credible to me. We usually hear Gale's take on the Arab/Israeli problems, and often they are very anti-Israel, sometimes to the point, I have thought, of being anti-semetic. I'm never of the school that believes Gale to be anti-Jew, so that's not what I mean. But, I can't personally be an Israel spokesperson on any level. And, I'm getting very sick of all the "ists" and "isms" out there. From what John and Gale both say, and I respect their opinions enourmously, there's not much good that can be said for Israel. I keep wanting that to not be so. Half of my inherited by marriage family is Jewish and Israeli. They speak as vehemously about the Arabs terror reign against them as Gale does about the Israeli reign of terror.. I'm sure the "truth" lies
somewhere inbetween. IN the meantime, I'm sorry to have welcomed Mr. Stein to the CCN, sorry he's a deceitor, and sorry I'm so easily taken in. But, I'm glad there's the voice of all of you on CCN to keep me on the straight and narrow path of reason.
Jane
4b. Re: Stein
Posted by: "Paul Baren" pbaren2@optonline.net pbaren2
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:07 pm ((PST))
I am not an expert on the subject--but when a group of well financed "others" descend on a country that they say God gave them 4 or 5 thousand years ago--there is going to be a problem--whatever the good intention was the intrusion was not handled well--that is the problem.
Paul Baren
Original Message
From: Jane Bean
To: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 5:51 PM
Subject: [cornwall_community_network] Stein
I think, in the ancient and near past, people who have had a thesis of some kind, usually religious, were expected to go before an assembled group of scholars and peers, in order to have their ideas examined. In some churches it's usually a group of six or seven individuals who have some credence in that community.
Here in Cornwall we have.....well, Cornwall. It's disheartening to think someone like Mr. Stein can sound so credible to me. We usually hear Gale's take on the Arab/Israeli problems, and often they are very anti-Israel, sometimes to the point, I have thought, of being anti-semetic. I'm never of the school that believes Gale to be anti-Jew, so that's not what I mean. But, I can't personally be an Israel spokesperson on any level. And, I'm getting very sick of all the "ists" and "isms" out there. From what John and Gale both say, and I respect their opinions enourmously, there's not much good that can be said for Israel. I keep wanting that to not be so. Half of my inherited by marriage family is Jewish and Israeli. They speak as vehemously about the Arabs terror reign against them as Gale does about the Israeli reign of terror.. I'm sure the "truth" lies
somewhere inbetween. IN the meantime, I'm sorry to have welcomed Mr. Stein to the CCN, sorry he's a deceitor, and sorry I'm so easily taken in. But, I'm glad there's the voice of all of you on CCN to keep me on the straight and narrow path of reason.
Jane
4c. Re: Stein
Posted by: "Hanna Grossman" hannakg@optonline.net hannakg2001
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:09 pm ((PST))
I sent this earlier today, and for some reason it did not show up.
Much as I hate to get into this kind of thing, and although I am
Jewish and for much of my life celebrated the existence of Israel,
there are a few points here which we should not let pass unchallenged:
"The early settlers owned the land"-- I am sure they bought it from
somebody, but most of us have had enough education about how American
Indians used and thought of land to recognize that the form o
ownership which the settlers had may not have had any relationship to
the local cultural way of thinking about land.
Whether the system was imposed by the English, or the Ottomans before
them, I do not know, but I very much question whether the local Arabs
understood and accepted it.
Hanna Grossman
5. Amazing! Part I
Posted by: "alansteinct" a.stein@snet.net alansteinct
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:30 pm ((PST))
It's amazing how one person injecting a little balance after an anti-Israel post can set off a
chain reaction. It's a tribute to how irrational some of the Israel-haters are.
I'm going to respond in a separate post to many of the misleading arguments of the lynch
mob, but first I'll point out the basic asymmetry both of the Arab-Israeli conflict and of
the arguments between supporters of Israel and the Israel-haters.
(It actually took six long posts to deal even superficially with the errors and deceptions in
the posts I saw when I started writing this. I apologize for the quantity, but I do hope
those who are not fanatically anti-Israel will have an open mind and check out the reality
for themselves rather than being misled by the kinds of gross distortions I'm responding
to.)
In the Arab-Israeli conflict, the basic goal of Israel is to live in peace. There are
disagreements within Israel about how much in the way of concessions peace is worth, or
whether any concessions can induce its Arab enemies, including the Palestinian Arabs, to
agree to peace, but except for a tiny fringe, everyone wants peace and does not want to
have any control over the lives of their Arab neighbors.
In contrast, the goal of Israel's Arab and Muslim enemies (it used to be just Arab enemies,
but the establishment of the Islamic Republic of Iran changed that situation) is the
elimination of Israel.
When it comes to the debate here, the supporters of Israel are just that, pro-Israel. We are
not anti-Palestinian Arab; indeed, many are also pro-Palestinian. I personally have no
problem with the Palestinian Arabs setting up whatever type of entity they want in
whatever parts of the unallocated portions of the Palestine Mandate they ultimately gain
control of if they ever end their drive to destroy Israel and negotiate a peace agreement.
In contrast, most people on the other side isn't really pro-Palestinian; they're just anti-
Israel. If they were really interested in the welfare of the Palestinian Arabs, they'd urge the
Palestinian Authority leadership to start adhering to the commitments they made back in
1993 and work towards a reasonable compromise with Israel, rather than continuing their
rejectionism and love affair with terrorism that actually harms the Palestinian Arabs far
more than it harms Israel.
I'll also mention the irony of the post by Gale Toensing that I originally responded to: The
Jews she was referring to are probably on the same side she is, albeit for different reasons.
Many of the religious fanatics in Mea Shearim are anti-Zionist and refuse to recognize the
legitimacy of their own government, believing Jews do not have the right to re-establish
their own state in Eretz Yisrael until the coming of th Messiah.
And if I made the mistake of walking in that area wearing shorts on Shabbat, I'd be lucky
if they merely spit on me; more likely, they'd throw stones at me. They're nuts, like most
other anti-Zionists.
In other words, Gale, you picked the wrong example.
--Alan Stein
Check out the PRIMER blog
6. Amazing! Part II
Posted by: "alansteinct" a.stein@snet.net alansteinct
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:31 pm ((PST))
Now I'll start responding to some of the distortions in various posts. Please forgive me for
not responding to all of them, but I only have a finite amount of time and it generally takes
more time to respond to distortions and misinformation than to make them up in the first
place.
Gale erroneously and in a juvenile manner refers to Alan "Islamo-fascism Awareness
Week" and "Torture can be Justified" Dershowitz.
To the best of my knowledge, Dershowitz had nothing to do with Islamo-Fascism
Awareness Week.
If Gale actually paid attention to what Dershowitz said, she'd know that Dershowitz if
fanatically opposed to torture. He recently explained his position against torture at a
seminar of the Yale Institute for the Interdisciplinary Study of Antisemitism. (Incidentally,
to give an example of how much hate Israel-bashers have, they picketed the Yale Institute
for the Interdisciplinary Study of Antisemitism.)
Dershowitz even opposes torture in ticking bomb situations, on the grounds that if torture
is ever allowed it will be abused. Personally, if torturing one terrorist would save hundreds
of lives on a plane carrying a bomb, I myself would prefer saving those innocent lives, but
Dershowitz disagrees.
What he has argued, which has led Israel-haters to falsely claim he supports torture, is
that we're not going to succeed in preventing torture by outlawing it. That being the case,
we should force out government to conduct all torture out in the open, ultimately
authorized by the president. He believes (and I believe he's correct) any president would
be extremely reluctant to publicly authorize torture and this would all but eliminate
torture. Certainly, the abuses at Abu Ghraib would never have occurred if our leaders had
to publicly authorize them.
Gale is correct that "You can tell a lot about a person by the company he or she keeps or
defends." She mentions Alan Dershowitz, Campus Watch and ADL, falsely implying they
are all evil. But I do thank Gale for associating me with each of them.
I don't keep company with Alan Dershowitz, although I did go to hear him speak, and he
doesn't need anyone to defend him. He's an able lawyer and well able to defend himself.
I personally believe Campus Watch sometimes overreacts, but they are generally
responsibly responding to a legitimate problem: not just a lack of balance on many college
campuses, but the irresponsible prevention of activities to redress that balance and
effectuate the free flow of ideas which is the basic justification of academic freedom.
I do have some personal connections with the Anti-Defamation League and am proud to
be connected with that organization, one of the oldest and justifiably most respected civil
rights organizations in this country, indeed, in the world. In Connecticut, it is probably the
most active and effective organization protecting the civil rights of all our residents.
The fact that some people try to malign ADL is a measure of just how much hate Israel-
bashers have. As a civil rights organization, ADL naturally supports the right of the Jewish
people to have their own state living in peace, but that is just a small part of its agenda.
Still, when ADL talks, people listen precisely because of its well-deserved reputation. It is
for this very reason that people who hate Israel try to malign ADL.
--Alan Stein
Check out the PRIMER blog
7. Amazing! Part III
Posted by: "alansteinct" a.stein@snet.net alansteinct
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:32 pm ((PST))
John Miller correctly, albeit ungrammatically, wrote "It looks like we have a local (CT) AIPAC
with us in the person of Stein."
He is incorrect in writing "These guys will stop at nothing to silence and discredit anyone
who has ANY sympathy for the Palestinians or who thinks anything the Israelis do is bad."
I, for one, have plenty of sympathy for the Palestinian Arabs but have no interest in
silencing or discrediting myself.
The lot of the Palestinian Arabs is a miserable one and it's impossible for any feeling
person to fail to sympathize. That, however, does not change the reality that their plot is
primarily a result of their own actions and the actions of their Arab brethren.
I suggest that, rather than bashing Israel, those who actually care about the Palestinian
Arabs try to do something to help them.
One start would be pressuring the Palestinian Authority to move them out of refugee
camps and into real communities. It's telling that almost all the Palestinian Arabs in the
disputed territories, approximately 95 percent of them, live in areas which have been
under the administration of the Palestinian Authority for more than a decade. Yet, in all
that time, not a single refugee camp has been closed.
The reason is pretty clear: the Palestinian Arab leadership would prefer to have their own
people living in squalor than to give up what they recognize as a potent weapon in their
drive to destroy Israel.
By the way, I also have no interest in trying to discredit Alan Dershowitz, even though he
had some pretty brutal things to say about Israel a few weeks ago when I went to listen to
him.
Speaking of Alan Dershowitz, one thing he pointed out, which is ignored by the blind mice
following Norman Finkelstein, is that DePaul University is no less than the fifth university
at which he's failed to earn tenure. His problem earning tenured isn't because he hates
Israel; it's because he's a third rate scholar.
--Alan Stein
Check out the PRIMER blog
8. Amazing! Part IV
Posted by: "alansteinct" a.stein@snet.net alansteinct
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:33 pm ((PST))
Jane mentioned "From what John and Gale both say, and I respect their opinions
enourmously, there's not much good that can be said for Israel."
That alone should make you suspicious of what they say. In the meantime, I'll mention a
few good things that can be said for Israel. (I'll also mention some things that aren't so
good about Israel.)
In a tiny country, surrounded by enemies bent on its destruction, the Israelis have built a
vigorous democracy. They are the only nation in that area that truly is a democracy. They
are the only country in that area that, with one exception, gives equal legal rights to all its
citizens, regardless of religion or ethnicity. (The exception is that Arabs aren't forced to
serve in the army, an exception that has some negative consequences for them since
many of the relationships that lead to successful careers start in the army. On the other
hand, they don't get killed fighting terrorists. Some religious Jews are also exempted from
army service, for even less acceptable reasons than Arabs.)
Israel is the only country in the world which has ever brought in Africans to freedom. Israel
is the only country I know of which won a war and then sued for peace. (Unfortunately,
forty years and numerous concessions later, it still hasn't succeeded in inducing its
enemies to make peace.)
Israel quietly shares the knowledge it has gained producing farm products in an arid
environment with African nations, trying to help them increase production and reduce
food shortages.
(You may want to take a look at
many of the non-political aspects of Israel, many of which greatly benefit everyone.)
On the negative side, there is discrimination is Israel. (Not surprising; there's
discrimination everywhere.) Arab villages and towns are generally shortchanged when it
comes to government services. This is both morally wrong and shortsighted, although not
surprising. (Essentially the same thing happens here: can anyone name a poor, minority
neighborhood getting the same level of services as a middle class neighborhood?)
There is conflict between religious and secular Jews, with non-Orthodox Jews actually
having less control of their religious affairs than Muslims, Christians and others.
The army has attained a status that is unhealthy in a democracy, with almost every retired
Chief-of-Staff immediately entering politics. This is natural, given the reality that Israel
has been fighting for its existence ever since its re-establishment, but is still unhealthy.
The environment has often been neglected. (A few years ago, during opening ceremonies
for the Maccabiah Games, a bridge collapsed and some of the athletes who fell into a river
died, not by drowning but from the poisons in the river.)
Jane also wrote "IN the meantime, I'm sorry to have welcomed Mr. Stein to the CCN, sorry
he's a deceitor, and sorry I'm so easily taken in. But, I'm glad there's the voice of all of you
on CCN to keep me on the straight and narrow path of reason."
I'm sorry Jane incorrectly believes I'm a (I think she means) deceiver. I'm also sorry she's so
easily taken in.
I personally worry about people who worry about being kept on "straight and narrow path
of reason," particularly when they're implying I'm trying to mislead them, but mostly
because most things are complicated and certainly there are all sorts of grey in the Arab-
Israeli conflict.
I also find it interesting that charges that supporters of Israel keep making charges of
anti-Semitism come up far, far more often than actual charges of anti-Semitism. I
personally avoid charging anyone with anti-Semitism unless the charge is undeniable. I
just double-checked the messages I'd posted here because I didn't recall even mentioning
anti-Semitism and couldn't find any mention. (Obviously, I won't be able to make the same
claim in the future.) Yet charges that supporters of Israel keep charging anti-Semitism
were made in several messages.
--Alan Stein
Check out the PRIMER blog
9. Amazing! Part V
Posted by: "alansteinct" a.stein@snet.net alansteinct
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:34 pm ((PST))
Paul said: "I am not an expert on the subject--but when a group of well financed "others"
descend on a country that they say God gave them 4 or 5 thousand years ago--there is
going to be a problem--whatever the good intention was the intrusion was not handled
well--that is the problem."
That might be a problem if it happened, but it didn't. Few of the early Zionist pioneers were
religious; many were atheists.
The Zionist claim to, er, Zion is based on the fact that it has always been the homeland of the
Jewish people. There was also recognition that the land needed to be shared, since there
were other people there, too. Thus, the Zionists (albeit reluctantly) agreed to every proposal
to partition the land, including the severing of Transjordan (now Jordan) from the western
portion of Palestine, the Peel Commission's plan and the United Nation's Partition Plan. All
the bloodshed of the last six decades would have been avoided had the Arabs joined the
Jews in their willingness to compromise and share the land.
--Alan Stein
Check out the PRIMER blog
10. Amazing! Part VI
Posted by: "alansteinct" a.stein@snet.net alansteinct
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:34 pm ((PST))
Brian Savin said: "Your assertion of fair business negotiation in the 'sale' of Arab land in
Israel at that time and under those circumstances is at best naive and at worst can be
attacked as dishonest."
Personally, I don't believe land is "Arab" or "Israeli." Also, at the time I was referring to, the
land was not in Israel, although it was in Eretz Yisrael and most of it is now in Israel.
Ironically, you are correct that the negotiations for the sale of land weren't really fair, but
for the wrong reasons. They weren't fair because the Jews were desperate and the Arab
owners knew it. Thus, Jews wound up paying exorbitant prices, well above fair market
value, for marginal lands.
Brian also said: "As a practical matter, in my opinion, your posts can only exacerbate
strong negative feelings in a difficultly confused situation. Kill it."
It seems to me that it would be difficult to exacerbate the negative feelings expressed by
the fanatical Israel-bashers here. To paraphrase the first President Bush, I seem to be just
one lonely guy trying to insert a minimal amount of balance and sanity here. Frankly, I
don't expect to have any effect on the irredentist Israel-bashers, but do hope to
encourage those without closed-minds to check the facts out for themselves and also
encourage other supporters of the only multi-cultural democracy in the Middle East.
And, finally, Brian wrote: "If you want to be persuasive, I suggest you start by reading
President Carter's book, and graduate from there to the many works of current Israeli Arab
professors."
Funny Brian should mention that. I've read Carter's book and was amazed at how many
blatant factual errors he included, errors he could not have been unaware of. There have
been volumes written about the errors and bias in his book, which he should be ashamed
of.
It's noteworthy that the first executive director of the Carter Institute, a man who
previously was a co-author with Carter and an admirer of him, resigned his position as
Middle East Fellow at the Carter Institute to protest the bias and inaccuracies in the book.
No fewer than fourteen other advisors to the Carter Center resigned, saying they had
"been proud to be associated" with the center and its work, but could "no longer in good
conscience continue to serve the center as members of the Board of Councilors."
The former director, Kenneth Stein (no relation), described Carter's book as being "replete
with factual errors, copied materials not cited, superficialities, glaring omissions, and
simply invented segments." He also wrote "there are recollections cited from meetings
where I was the third person in the room, and my notes of those meetings show little
similarity to points claimed in the book."
One book I would recommend to those with open minds is "The Deadliest Lies: The Israel
Lobby and the Myth of Jewish Control," written by Abe Foxman, the executive director of
the Anti-Defamation League. It not only covers a small portion of the errors in Carter's
book, but the absurd accusations in the paper and book aby John Mearsheimer and
Stephen Walt.
--Alan Stein
Check out the PRIMER blog
1. A Question for Gale and Other Israel-Bashers
Posted by: "alansteinct" a.stein@snet.net alansteinct
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:40 pm ((PST))
Do you believe the Jewish people have the right, like other peoples, to their own state?
If so, what do you think Israel could do differently to induce its Arab enemies, including the
Palestinian Arabs, to agree to live in peace? Do you think the Arab states and the Palestinian
Arabs should be acting differently in any way?
If not, are you generally against nationalism, and thus, for example, against the existence of
the United States of America, Great Britain, the Islamic Republic of Iran and other nation-
states, or are you just applying a double standard to the Jewish people?
--Alan Stein
Check out the PRIMER blog
2a. stein
Posted by: "Paul Baren" pbaren2@optonline.net pbaren2
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:02 pm ((PST))
Can anything be done to stop this person cluttering up our Cornwall site--let him write a book or something!!
Paul Baren
2b. Re: stein
Posted by: "kgs59" kgs59@yahoo.com kgs59
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2007 1:31 am ((PST))
I don't understand why the contribution of serious minded, factual
material would bother you? If it's truth you're after why not at least
consider what Stein is offering?
In cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com, Paul Baren
>
> Can anything be done to stop this person cluttering up our Cornwall
site--let him write a book or something!!
> Paul Baren
>
2c. Re: stein
Posted by: "Kim Gellatly" kgellatly7373@charter.net kgellatly
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:41 am ((PST))
Hi Paul and everyone,
Even after 5 years of being away from Cornwall, I still love following the goings-on and thoughts of old friends. And the political commentary is usually fun and enlightening, but opining to the level of ranting and fanaticism would seem misplaced, particularly from those who have no connection to Cornwall or its people! That kind of "infiltration" could be a deterrent to those who otherwise enjoy this site, and an invitation to anyone on a soapbox to join. Could get messy.
I looked at the member list....this unsigned letter is from someone who just signed up for the group last night, which means he/she is more than likely a recruit of Mr. Stein's. The moderators have access to a feature in which they can ban a member....a rather extreme measure, but an available one nonetheless. The explanation of the banning process is at:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/ownmod/inviting/inviting-09.html
Lamenting from lurkerland (!),
Kim Gellatly
Original Message
From: Paul Baren
To: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 12:02 AM
Subject: [cornwall_community_network] stein
Can anything be done to stop this person cluttering up our Cornwall site--let him write a book or something!!
Paul Baren
3a. Re: spAmazing!
Posted by: "Nora Prentice" norapren@yahoo.com norapren
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:10 pm ((PST))
spamblock people, spamblock. save yourselves.
alansteinct
> Now I'll start responding to some of the distortions
> in various posts. Please forgive me for
> not responding to all of them, but I only have a
> finite amount of time and it generally takes
> more time to respond to distortions and
> misinformation than to make them up in the first
> place.
>
> Gale erroneously and in a juvenile manner refers to
> Alan "Islamo-fascism Awareness
> Week" and "Torture can be Justified" Dershowitz.
>
> To the best of my knowledge, Dershowitz had nothing
> to do with Islamo-Fascism
> Awareness Week.
>
> If Gale actually paid attention to what Dershowitz
> said, she'd know that Dershowitz if
> fanatically opposed to torture. He recently
> explained his position against torture at a
> seminar of the Yale Institute for the
> Interdisciplinary Study of Antisemitism.
> (Incidentally,
> to give an example of how much hate Israel-bashers
> have, they picketed the Yale Institute
> for the Interdisciplinary Study of Antisemitism.)
>
> Dershowitz even opposes torture in ticking bomb
> situations, on the grounds that if torture
> is ever allowed it will be abused. Personally, if
> torturing one terrorist would save hundreds
> of lives on a plane carrying a bomb, I myself would
> prefer saving those innocent lives, but
> Dershowitz disagrees.
>
> What he has argued, which has led Israel-haters to
> falsely claim he supports torture, is
> that we're not going to succeed in preventing
> torture by outlawing it. That being the case,
> we should force out government to conduct all
> torture out in the open, ultimately
> authorized by the president. He believes (and I
> believe he's correct) any president would
> be extremely reluctant to publicly authorize torture
> and this would all but eliminate
> torture. Certainly, the abuses at Abu Ghraib would
> never have occurred if our leaders had
> to publicly authorize them.
>
> Gale is correct that "You can tell a lot about a
> person by the company he or she keeps or
> defends." She mentions Alan Dershowitz, Campus Watch
> and ADL, falsely implying they
> are all evil. But I do thank Gale for associating me
> with each of them.
>
> I don't keep company with Alan Dershowitz, although
> I did go to hear him speak, and he
> doesn't need anyone to defend him. He's an able
> lawyer and well able to defend himself.
>
> I personally believe Campus Watch sometimes
> overreacts, but they are generally
> responsibly responding to a legitimate problem: not
> just a lack of balance on many college
> campuses, but the irresponsible prevention of
> activities to redress that balance and
> effectuate the free flow of ideas which is the basic
> justification of academic freedom.
>
> I do have some personal connections with the
> Anti-Defamation League and am proud to
> be connected with that organization, one of the
> oldest and justifiably most respected civil
> rights organizations in this country, indeed, in the
> world. In Connecticut, it is probably the
> most active and effective organization protecting
> the civil rights of all our residents.
>
> The fact that some people try to malign ADL is a
> measure of just how much hate Israel-
> bashers have. As a civil rights organization, ADL
> naturally supports the right of the Jewish
> people to have their own state living in peace, but
> that is just a small part of its agenda.
> Still, when ADL talks, people listen precisely
> because of its well-deserved reputation. It is
> for this very reason that people who hate Israel try
> to malign ADL.
>
> --Alan Stein
> Check out the PRIMER blog
>
>
>
>
>
1a. Re: stein
Posted by: "alansteinct" a.stein@snet.net alansteinct
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:52 am ((PST))
In cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com, Paul Baren
>
> Can anything be done to stop this person cluttering up our Cornwall site--let him write
a book or something!!
> Paul Baren
Just to put things in perspective:
I wrote a single response to a message posted by Gale Toensing, a message someone else
later digressed from attacking me to point out was ludicrous. It was met with an
immediate attack by Gale Toensing, a welcome from Jane Bean (who quickly turned around
and decided I was a deceitor) and another message which seemed relatively normal.
I simply responded to the attack from Toensing (a normal human reaction) and also
responded positively to the welcome from Jane Bean.
Before I could catch a breath, I found roughly a dozen additional messages had been
posted by others, most extremely hostile, some appearing to me to be crossing the line
into the sort of personal attack that supposedly isn't permitted on this board.
I simply responded to some - not even all - of those attacks.
Personally, there are other things I'd rather be doing, but I think it's unfair to complain
about my defending myself. (On the other hand, in large measure that's what happens in
the Arab-Israeli conflict: Arabs murder Jews and nobody says a thing. Israel defends itself
and people cry murder.)
If you don't want me to defend myself or post anything about the Arab-Israeli conflict,
stop attacking me and unfairly attacking Israel.
If you don't want to read my posts defending myself and Israel against unfair attacks, take
the advice of the unsigned poster (Gale, where's your complaint about his or her posting a
message without signing it? Seems like a double standard to me.) and "spamblock people,
spamblock. save yourselves."
Alan Stein
Check the PRIMER blog at
1b. Re: stein
Posted by: "Hendon Chubb" garlic@aya.yale.edu garlic92
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:29 am ((PST))
Kim raises an interesting question. I'd like to throw the issue
open to to Mr. Stein individually and to the CCN membership
generally.
The charter of CCN reads in part:
This Discussion Page is designed to allow a free and open
discussion of matters of interest to residents of the Town of
Cornwall, CT. Comments are invited from year-round and weekend
residents of Cornwall, people who live in the nearby communities
in the Northwest Corner and from anyone else who loves and values
Cornwall.
I gather that Mr. Stein is not resident of Cornwall or a
neighboring community and he has not up till now demonstrated
particular interest in or love and value for the Cornwall beyond
using CCN as a forum for his views. As moderator I have the right
to ban Mr. Stein, but I'm reluctant to exercise this right
without a democratic discussion of the matter. Is he in fact a
member of the Cornwall community? Is his expression of his views
in "of interest to residents of Cornwall"? What do people think I
should do?
Hendon Chubb
Moderator
Kim Gellatly wrote: Hi Paul and everyone,
Even after 5 years of being away from Cornwall, I still love
following the goings-on and thoughts of old friends. And the
political commentary is usually fun and enlightening, but opining
to the level of ranting and fanaticism would seem misplaced,
particularly from those who have no connection to Cornwall or its
people! That kind of "infiltration" could be a deterrent to those
who otherwise enjoy this site, and an invitation to anyone on a
soapbox to join. Could get messy. I looked at the member
list....this unsigned letter is from someone who just signed up
for the group last night, which means he/she is more than likely
a recruit of Mr. Stein's. The moderators have access to a feature
in which they can ban a member....a rather extreme measure, but
an available one nonetheless. The explanation of the banning
process is at:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/ownmod/inviting/\
inviting-09.html
Gellatly
Original Message
From: Paul Baren
cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 12:02 AM Subject:
[cornwall_community_network] stein
Can anything be done to stop this person cluttering up our
Cornwall site--let him write a book or something!! Paul Baren
No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free
Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.0/1135 -
Release Date: 11/16/2007 10:58 PM
1c. Re: stein
Posted by: "Hendon Chubb" garlic@aya.yale.edu garlic92
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:36 am ((PST))
Dear kgs59,
It's important to sign your messages. Anonymity is not allowed. I
have checked your membership records and you don't even there say
who you are. Unless you are prepared to tel us who you are, I
will have to remove you from the membership rolls.
Hendon Chubb
Moderator
kgs59 wrote: I don't understand why the contribution of
serious minded, factual material would bother you? If it's truth
you're after why not at least consider what Stein is offering?
In cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com
be done to stop this person cluttering up our Cornwall
site--let him write a book or something!! Paul Baren
1d. Re: stein
Posted by: "norma lake" normalake@yahoo.com normalake
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:00 am ((PST))
It is clear that many people who live in or near Cornwall have an interest in the topic that Mr. Stein has written about - I had over 25 CCN postings on my computer this morning! I do wonder how he heard of us and think this is the threshold question. Those of us who founded CCN (Lazlo, David G, Hendon and myself) saw it only as a local chat room. And way back in the dawn of CCN when I was moderator and when people complained of a very similar situation, I suggested that the person who was posting a great deal limit it to once a week. That person did and all was well - relatively so anyway. So, Hendon, find out about Mr. Stein and find out if he only comes through here on his way to Tanglewood or not.
Norma Lake
Hendon Chubb
Kim raises an interesting question. I'd like to throw the issue open to to Mr. Stein individually and to the CCN membership generally.
The charter of CCN reads in part:
This Discussion Page is designed to allow a free and open discussion of matters of interest to residents of the Town of Cornwall, CT. Comments are invited from year-round and weekend residents of Cornwall, people who live in the nearby communities in the Northwest Corner and from anyone else who loves and values Cornwall.
I gather that Mr. Stein is not resident of Cornwall or a neighboring community and he has not up till now demonstrated particular interest in or love and value for the Cornwall beyond using CCN as a forum for his views. As moderator I have the right to ban Mr. Stein, but I'm reluctant to exercise this right without a democratic discussion of the matter. Is he in fact a member of the Cornwall community? Is his expression of his views in "of interest to residents of Cornwall"? What do people think I should do?
Hendon Chubb
Moderator
Kim Gellatly wrote: Hi Paul and everyone,
Even after 5 years of being away from Cornwall, I still love following the goings-on and thoughts of old friends. And the political commentary is usually fun and enlightening, but opining to the level of ranting and fanaticism would seem misplaced, particularly from those who have no connection to Cornwall or its people! That kind of "infiltration" could be a deterrent to those who otherwise enjoy this site, and an invitation to anyone on a soapbox to join. Could get messy.
I looked at the member list....this unsigned letter is from someone who just signed up for the group last night, which means he/she is more than likely a recruit of Mr. Stein's. The moderators have access to a feature in which they can ban a member....a rather extreme measure, but an available one nonetheless. The explanation of the banning process is at:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/ownmod/inviting/inviting-09.html
Lamenting from lurkerland (!),
Kim Gellatly
Original Message
From: Paul Baren
To: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 12:02 AM
Subject: [cornwall_community_network] stein
Can anything be done to stop this person cluttering up our Cornwall site--let him write a book or something!!
Paul Baren
No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.0/1135 - Release Date: 11/16/2007 10:58 PM
Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage.
1e. Re: stein
Posted by: "Anne Baren" pbaren@optonline.net abaren2002
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:04 am ((PST))
I do think we should not have to wade through the postings of Mr. Stein
and Gale Toensing, both of whom seem to use
CNN for one purpose only - to advance their political views. The
Israel-Palestinian conflict is certainly of interest to most of us, but
there are plenty of reasoned books and articles for us to delve into if
we want to learn more. I think CNN should be a forum for a variety of
topics by "year-round and weekend residents of Cornwall, people who live
in the nearby communities in the Northwest Corner and from anyone else
who loves and values Cornwall"
Anne Baren
1f. Re: stein
Posted by: "Phyllis Nauts" pnauts@optonline.net pnauts
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:28 am ((PST))
Who is Kgs59?
Phyllis Nauts
Original Message
From: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kgs59
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 4:32 AM
To: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [cornwall_community_network] Re: stein
I don't understand why the contribution of serious minded, factual
material would bother you? If it's truth you're after why not at least
consider what Stein is offering?
In cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com, Paul Baren
>
> Can anything be done to stop this person cluttering up our Cornwall
site--let him write a book or something!!
> Paul Baren
>
Yahoo! Groups Links
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.486 / Virus Database: 269.15.33/1133 - Release Date: 11/15/2007
8:57 PM
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.486 / Virus Database: 269.15.33/1133 - Release Date: 11/15/2007
8:57 PM
1g. Re: stein
Posted by: "alansteinct" a.stein@snet.net alansteinct
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:35 am ((PST))
In cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com, Anne Baren
>
> I do think we should not have to wade through the postings of Mr. Stein
> and Gale Toensing, both of whom seem to use
> CNN for one purpose only - to advance their political views. The
> Israel-Palestinian conflict is certainly of interest to most of us, but
> there are plenty of reasoned books and articles for us to delve into if
> we want to learn more. I think CNN should be a forum for a variety of
> topics by "year-round and weekend residents of Cornwall, people who live
> in the nearby communities in the Northwest Corner and from anyone else
> who loves and values Cornwall"
> Anne Baren
I agree completely.
Remember, I only entered the discussion because I was approached by a Cornwall resident
who was disturbed by the venomous writings of Gale Toensing but didn't feel
knowledgeable enough to respond and, except for this message, all my other messages
have been responses to messages essentially directed at me.
I would suggest this thread be ended here and I will certainly be happy to stay quiet as
long as others refrain from lies and distortions regarding the Arab-Israeli conflict.
I would, however, still like to know about whether that yogurt place still exists in any form.
Alan Stein
1h. Re: stein
Posted by: "Hendon Chubb" garlic@aya.yale.edu garlic92
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:15 am ((PST))
Dear Mr. Stein,
I'm still not clear whether you are in some sense a member of the
Cornwall community. If you are, more power to you. If you're not,
and are simply using CCN as a forum for expressions of your views
on the Israel/Palestine problem, then reactions so far (email and
spoken) to my question of whether you should continue to be a
member are tending to the notion that you don't belong in the CCN
group, although I'm eager for more responses. I'm afraid that if
you are not a member of our Community staying quiet "as long as
others refrain from lies and distortions regarding the
Arab-Israeli conflict" is not enough since there are frequent
postings of what you would probably consider lies.
You didn't mention in your original posting that you had been
asked to express your views by a Cornwall resident. If this is
so, you could share your view with that person and allow her/him
to use them as a basis for postings.
Hendon Chubb
Moderator
PS - Gale Toensing, whose views you object to, is indeed a member
of the community. She lives in a neighboring town, posts on
several subjects of local interest, attends meetings in Cornwall
and has in the past covered Cornwall as journalist. HC
alansteinct wrote:
In
cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com
should not have to wade through the postings of Mr. Stein and
Gale Toensing, both of whom seem to use CNN for one purpose only
- to advance their political views. The Israel-Palestinian
conflict is certainly of interest to most of us, but there are
plenty of reasoned books and articles for us to delve into if we
want to learn more. I think CNN should be a forum for a variety
of topics by "year-round and weekend residents of Cornwall,
people who live in the nearby communities in the Northwest
Corner and from anyone else who loves and values Cornwall" Anne
Baren I agree completely. Remember, I only entered
the discussion because I was approached by a Cornwall resident
who was disturbed by the venomous writings of Gale Toensing but
didn't feel knowledgeable enough to respond and, except for this
message, all my other messages have been responses to messages
essentially directed at me. I would suggest this thread be ended
here and I will certainly be happy to stay quiet as long as
others refrain from lies and distortions regarding the
Arab-Israeli conflict. I would, however, still like to know
about whether that yogurt place still exists in any form.
1i. Re: stein
Posted by: "Nora Prentice" norapren@yahoo.com norapren
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:45 am ((PST))
spam. I tell you. spam.
Phyllis Nauts
>
> Who is Kgs59?
> Phyllis Nauts
>
Original Message
> From: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of kgs59
> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 4:32 AM
> To: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [cornwall_community_network] Re: stein
>
> I don't understand why the contribution of serious
> minded, factual
> material would bother you? If it's truth you're
> after why not at least
> consider what Stein is offering?
>
>
>
In cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com,
> Paul Baren
>
> >
> > Can anything be done to stop this person
> cluttering up our Cornwall
> site--let him write a book or something!!
> > Paul Baren
> >
>
>
>
>
1j. Re: stein
Posted by: "John Miller" JLM186@OPTONLINE.NET john_miller384
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:02 am ((PST))
Hendy. I think Stein did say originally say that he was asked by a Cornwall resident to step in to the debate. However, this latest crap from him about agreeing to stay off CCS if "lies and distortions" about the Middle East discontinue is ridiculous. He's attempting to become our sensor. He clearly is a flack for the Israeli lobby. JohnM
Original Message
From: Hendon Chubb
To: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 10:14 AM
Subject: Re: [cornwall_community_network] Re: stein
Dear Mr. Stein,
I'm still not clear whether you are in some sense a member of the Cornwall community. If you are, more power to you. If you're not, and are simply using CCN as a forum for expressions of your views on the Israel/Palestine problem, then reactions so far (email and spoken) to my question of whether you should continue to be a member are tending to the notion that you don't belong in the CCN group, although I'm eager for more responses. I'm afraid that if you are not a member of our Community staying quiet "as long as others refrain from lies and distortions regarding the Arab-Israeli conflict" is not enough since there are frequent postings of what you would probably consider lies.
You didn't mention in your original posting that you had been asked to express your views by a Cornwall resident. If this is so, you could share your view with that person and allow her/him to use them as a basis for postings.
Hendon Chubb
Moderator
PS - Gale Toensing, whose views you object to, is indeed a member of the community. She lives in a neighboring town, posts on several subjects of local interest, attends meetings in Cornwall and has in the past covered Cornwall as journalist. HC
alansteinct wrote:
In cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com, Anne Baren
I do think we should not have to wade through the postings of Mr. Stein
and Gale Toensing, both of whom seem to use
CNN for one purpose only - to advance their political views. The
Israel-Palestinian conflict is certainly of interest to most of us, but
there are plenty of reasoned books and articles for us to delve into if
we want to learn more. I think CNN should be a forum for a variety of
topics by "year-round and weekend residents of Cornwall, people who live
in the nearby communities in the Northwest Corner and from anyone else
who loves and values Cornwall"
Anne Baren
I agree completely.
Remember, I only entered the discussion because I was approached by a Cornwall resident
who was disturbed by the venomous writings of Gale Toensing but didn't feel
knowledgeable enough to respond and, except for this message, all my other messages
have been responses to messages essentially directed at me.
I would suggest this thread be ended here and I will certainly be happy to stay quiet as
long as others refrain from lies and distortions regarding the Arab-Israeli conflict.
I would, however, still like to know about whether that yogurt place still exists in any form.
Alan Stein
1k. Re: stein
Posted by: "gunnwelles" gunnwelles@yahoo.com gunnwelles
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:16 am ((PST))
Enough of it. We are here to be civil and neighborly in our
discussions. Although an occasional cat fight breaks out,in the long
run they have been ended without incident. It seems to me that you
all have others emails to directly address your concerns. Esp. if
they are personnal. Each attack on the site leaves me thinking that
this is not the CCN's true intentions and was a reason I did not
involve myself in the group when it first began. A comment,or a
question of fact(s) is totally acceptable, but then it should end. If
one feels like they need more, TAKE IT OFF the CCN. Some subjects are
to hot to handle in quips and sound bites and should be better left
to those with the time and interest in dealing with personnal attacks
and insults.And don't reply by saying "we" do not want to learn more
about an uncomfortable subject. That is not the case. L.Welles
In cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com, Nora Prentice
>
> spam. I tell you. spam.
>
>
Phyllis Nauts
>
> >
> > Who is Kgs59?
> > Phyllis Nauts
> >
Original Message
> > From: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com]
> > On Behalf Of kgs59
> > Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 4:32 AM
> > To: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [cornwall_community_network] Re: stein
> >
> > I don't understand why the contribution of serious
> > minded, factual
> > material would bother you? If it's truth you're
> > after why not at least
> > consider what Stein is offering?
> >
> >
> >
In cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com,
> > Paul Baren
> >
> > >
> > > Can anything be done to stop this person
> > cluttering up our Cornwall
> > site--let him write a book or something!!
> > > Paul Baren
> > >
> >
1l. My Eyes Hurt!
Posted by: "Erin Hedden" mom917@sbcglobal.net WHRB2
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:41 am ((PST))
Thank you, Lori. I agree with the at nauseam of some subjects, regardless of the interesting subjects. As far as the reference to cat fights, I think that perhaps, sometimes, they are replied to with a bit of rubbing alcohol.
I think that CCN is a great little group and do enjoy being able to post my kids' fundraiser's and, do I dare say, voice my sometimes not so popular opinions. I fell that generally, everyone's opinions are responded to in a mature fashion, but yes, they do sometimes get way out of hand. I think that using avenues (i.e., email or telephone) other than CCN to discuss some issues is a fine idea.
There's my two cents!
Erin Hedden
PS- Notice the subject change?
gunnwelles
Enough of it. We are here to be civil and neighborly in our
discussions. Although an occasional cat fight breaks out,in the long
run they have been ended without incident. It seems to me that you
all have others emails to directly address your concerns. Esp. if
they are personnal. Each attack on the site leaves me thinking that
this is not the CCN's true intentions and was a reason I did not
involve myself in the group when it first began. A comment,or a
question of fact(s) is totally acceptable, but then it should end. If
one feels like they need more, TAKE IT OFF the CCN. Some subjects are
to hot to handle in quips and sound bites and should be better left
to those with the time and interest in dealing with personnal attacks
and insults.And don't reply by saying "we" do not want to learn more
about an uncomfortable subject. That is not the case. L.Welles
In cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com, Nora Prentice
wrote:
>
> spam. I tell you. spam.
>
>
Phyllis Nauts
wrote:
>
> >
> > Who is Kgs59?
> > Phyllis Nauts
> >
Original Message
> > From: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com]
> > On Behalf Of kgs59
> > Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 4:32 AM
> > To: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [cornwall_community_network] Re: stein
> >
> > I don't understand why the contribution of serious
> > minded, factual
> > material would bother you? If it's truth you're
> > after why not at least
> > consider what Stein is offering?
> >
> >
> >
In cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com,
> > Paul Baren
> >
wrote:
> > >
> > > Can anything be done to stop this person
> > cluttering up our Cornwall
> > site--let him write a book or something!!
> > > Paul Baren
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.486 / Virus Database: 269.15.33/1133 -
> > Release Date: 11/15/2007
> > 8:57 PM
> >
> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.486 / Virus Database: 269.15.33/1133 -
> > Release Date: 11/15/2007
> > 8:57 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cornwall_community_network/
> >
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cornwall_community_network/join
> > (Yahoo! ID required)
> >
> mailto:cornwall_community_network-digest@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> mailto:cornwall_community_network-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> cornwall_community_network-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Get easy, one-click access to your favorites.
> Make Yahoo! your homepage.
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
Yahoo! Groups Links
1m. Re: stein
Posted by: "Paul Baren" pbaren2@optonline.net pbaren2
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:46 am ((PST))
I agree with my wife--I hope we can limit people on this site to those that have a connection to Cornwall-- not just have a friend in Cornwall who asks them to respond . I also agree that if there is a reference to something contrerversional ?--we don't need someone from the outside to jump in--we have plenty of knowledgeable people in Cornwall to add their say.
With all do respect to Gale --there is no question that she has an agenda and the constant barrage sometimes turns people off!! There is also no question that the Palestinian problem has to be resolved somehow or we will never have peace in the middle east or even in many other parts of the world-- yet our representatives are too chicken to even bring it up--much.
Paul Baren
Original Message
From: Anne Baren
To: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: [cornwall_community_network] stein
I do think we should not have to wade through the postings of Mr. Stein
and Gale Toensing, both of whom seem to use
CNN for one purpose only - to advance their political views. The
Israel-Palestinian conflict is certainly of interest to most of us, but
there are plenty of reasoned books and articles for us to delve into if
we want to learn more. I think CNN should be a forum for a variety of
topics by "year-round and weekend residents of Cornwall, people who live
in the nearby communities in the Northwest Corner and from anyone else
who loves and values Cornwall"
Anne Baren
1n. Re: stein
Posted by: "Ttruckr23@aol.com" Ttruckr23@aol.com ttruckr23
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:08 am ((PST))
In a message dated 11/18/07 4:32:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
kgs59@yahoo.com writes:
I don't understand why the contribution of serious minded, factual
material would bother you? If it's truth you're after why not at least
consider what Stein is offering?
Just to find out, who might this poster be...?
Just a sig please?
Dave (the curious) Becker
TT23- There's no such thing as too much chain......
1p. Re: stein
Posted by: "Ttruckr23@aol.com" Ttruckr23@aol.com ttruckr23
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:35 am ((PST))
In a message dated 11/18/07 10:15:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
garlic@aya.yale.edu writes:
<
view with that person and allow her/him to use them as a basis for postings.>>
I'd think that if the "requester" (kgs59?) of Mr. Stein's
assistance was allegedly a member of CCN, and felt so strongly on the subject, that
perhaps he/she should take part rather then require the use of an agent to
express his opinions. He/she shouldn't have worried about getting rocks chucked
at him/her in response to what might he/she might have considered to be
unpopular opinions. Heck, none of them have hit me yet!
It's called "distance learning". Hardhats optional
Dave Becker
TT23- There's no such thing as too much chain......
************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
2. Writing Is Good
Posted by: "norma lake" normalake@yahoo.com normalake
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:16 am ((PST))
Well it certainly is better than shooting at people or blowing them up. When I was teaching history at Housatonic, I started two courses on the non-Western world - one for seniors and one for freshmen. We studied the Middle East for one quarter of the year. I had some very general background in this so did some graduate level work in the Middle East, China and Africa at Yale, Central and Wesleyan. Went to many conferences on all but particularly on the Middle East which the education gurus in CT were pushing at that time (mid 1980's). I still felt hopelessly inadequate for the task, but I passionately believe, and still do, that the non-Western world doesn't get adequate attention in our school curriculum even though it has gotten better.
The opinions about Israel and the Arab/Palestinians/Iranians/who ever are coming pretty thick and fast on CCN. Most of the writers voice passionately held beliefs, others confess to not knowing much but want to know more. So far I think the language needs to be toned down, stick to the facts and please when writing about something like how land was acquired, put a date on it. But it is the confrontational language and personal characterizations that turn most of us off.
I recently read a book by Sandy Tolan called "The Lemon Tree: an Arab, a Jew, and the Heart of the Middle East". It is not the only thing I have read about hope and reconciliation in the Middle East. It is not sugar coated either. So why don't CCNers start writing about groups or individuals who are actively seeking peaceful solutions to this sad and awful problem instead of heating up the rhetoric. I grew up politically in the 1960s and believe that if you aren't part of the solution you are part of the problem. Many of you have defined the problems, now let's move on.
Off topic a little, I went to The Salisbury Forum last night and heard John L. Thornton speak on "China: Our Partner in the World Future." Like most of the speakers I have heard there, he was excellent. The next forum is April 25 and will have John L. Esposito speak on "The Future of Islam in the West." Might be a good event for all of you to attend!
Norma Lake
Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.
3a. CCN
Posted by: "Jane Bean" davejane@optonline.net davejane06753
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:02 am ((PST))
I feel partially to blame for having responded favoroably to Mr. Stein's initial note to us. So, sorry about that. I sort of feel that one Dave Becker per chat room is enough, too. (Nothing personal, Dave, your responses are usually interesting, if long, even though Nora gives you a hard time). I think Norma Lake has, again, made things much clearer and less vitriolic. But, I don't sense Mr. Stein as having an ulterior motive, just a different one from many of us, so I am not sorry he's expressed his feelings here. It's kind of like throwing a new cat into an already established pecking order of cats. The results are often bloody, but not fatal. Depends on the cats, of course.
Sorry I called Mr. Stein a "deceitor" - I like making up new words now and then (!). I probably meant deceiver, but even that could be a misplaced word. Someone who deceives implies deliberate misrepresentation of the facts. I don't think that's true here. I guess calling him anything but Mr. Stein is inappropriate.
We have "allowed" Gale her posting within reason. I just feel right now that this is perhaps not the place for any of the diatribe we all fall into now and then.
I have no knowledge of any yogurt place in Canaan.
Jane Bean
4. Iraq moratorium, Harold Burbank, + impeachment
Posted by: "Gale Toensing" gtoensing@comcast.net bintdeeb
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:23 am ((PST))
Dear All
Something exciting happened in Cornwall on Friday (apart from Alan Stein's email!), at least, I was really inspired by it.
Jeremy,. Doty and others have put together the Iraq Moratorium group in Cornwall. It's part of a national peace movement that mirrors the Vietnam moratorium movement. Basically, it's a promise to do an anti-war activity on the third Friday of each month as a gesture of solidarity against the war and as a consciousness raising thing. I think this was the second meeting. It was at Town Hall. The next one will be the third Friday in December and there's a new website at http://imcornwall.collectives.com
Harold Burbank was the speaker on Friday. He is going to challenge Chris Murphy for the Fifth District seat based on Murphy's refusal to support articles of impeachment against Bush and Cheney. He's very realistic about the outcome of his "campaisn" but I believe he sees it more as a vehicle to get a discussion going and to build the record of the Bush administration's illegal actions in going to war against Iraq and Afghanistan and the way that war has been conducted. There is no statute of limitations on war crimes, Burbank said.
Burbank is a civil rights attorney from Kennebunkport, Maine, and as a teenager worked for Bush Sr. cutting the grass and stuff at the compound. He is still in touch with Bush Sr and writes to him often..Burbank has a case in front of the US Supreme Court right now. He lives in Canton. I know there was a discussion on CCN a while ago about impeachment and the consensus opinion was it wouldn't be a good thing to do because it would tie up Congress, etc etc but I'm rethinking that position and I wonder how others think about it now? Burbank made some pretty good arguments, which I plan to include in a story that I'll post on The Corner. (I just interviewed him for two hours) My thought is that impeachment procedures would bring all of the issues onto the front pages generate a huge national discusses, and even if it ties up Congress, Congress is pretty tied up already and mostly just passing Bush's bills. Burbank also had some rather scary information about the Administration's intentions vis a vis Iran.
The meeting was very interesting. Around 20-30 people attended (I think -- I didn't do a head count). John MIllier also contributed an idea that's got me thinking too. He said he opposes the voluntary military because it's too much like a private militia. He suggested instead that there should be a kind of national service that young people are required to participate in. The current system draws a lot of poor kids without a lot of options who see the military as an opportunity to advance themselves, but then find themselves in this horrible situation. Also, I just read this week about high deserter rates. How would a national service work? Would eveyone -- including politicians' children -- have to serve? Would people have a choice of being in the military or doing some other social work, like the Peace Corps, or working with inner city schools, or poor rural communities? Is it a good idea?
--Gale Courey Toensing
6a. Re: I think this is a reasonable request
Posted by: "Scoville Soule" scoville.soule@snet.net scovillesoule
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:43 am ((PST))
Hi Brian,
I would be shocked! Shocked! If Alan doesn't take you up on your kind offer
to provide him with a list of "serious analysts" of the Israeli/Palestinian
conflict. Or that he would pass up the opportunity to read Carter's book
deploring Apartheid in that troubled land. Surely he won't pass up the
opportunity to read a thoughtful book by a straight arrow and experienced
honest broker such as former president Carter who brought Arafat and Sadat
together at Camp David some years back. Mr. Stein appears to be such a
thoughtful and open minded man. Please tell me you two have gotten together.
Scoville
Original Message
From: "savinbrian"
To:
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 8:11 PM
Subject: [cornwall_community_network] Re: I think this is a reasonable
request
> Alan
> Your assertion of fair business negotiation in the "sale" of Arab land
> in Israel at that time and under those circumstances is at best naive
> and at worst can be attacked as dishonest. As a practical matter, in
> my opinion, your posts can only exacerbate strong negative feelings in
> a difficultly confused situation. Kill it. If you want to be
> persuasive, I suggest you start by reading President Carter's book,
> and graduate from there to the many works of current Israeli Arab
> professors. I'll be pleased to provide a reading list of serious
> analysts.
> Regards,
> Brian Savin
>
>
In cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com, Alan Stein
>
> >
> > Much of the land that was purchased was purchased from Arabs, who
> certainly knew what they were doing, but that's besides the point.
> Banding together to try to massacre new neighbors and take their land
> is not a friendly act, regardless of how well one understands the laws
> of land ownership. And remember, these new neighbors generally weren't
> displacing anyone; much of the land they bought was rocky or swampland
> nobody else wanted - they just didn't want Jews there.
> >
> >
> > Hanna Grossman said:
> >
> > >Much as I hate to get into this kind of thing, and although I am
> > >Jewish and for much of my life celebrated the existence of Israel,
> > >there are a few points here which we should not let pass unchallenged:
> > >
> > >"The early settlers owned the land"-- I am sure they bought it from
> > >somebody, but most of us have had enough education about how American
> > >Indians used and thought of land to recognize that the form o
> > >ownership which the settlers had may not have had any relationship to
> > >the local cultural way of thinking about land.
> > >Whether the system was imposed by the English, or the Ottomans before
> > >them, I do not know, but I very much question whether the local Arabs
> > >understood and accepted it.
> >
> > --
> >
> > Alan H. Stein
> > a.stein@...
> > www.alanstein.com
> >
> > Skype: alanstein
> > iChat/AIM: alanhstein
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
7a. Re: Amazing! Part IV
Posted by: "Ttruckr23@aol.com" Ttruckr23@aol.com ttruckr23
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:01 am ((PST))
In a message dated 11/17/07 11:33:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
a.stein@snet.net writes:
<< I personally worry about people who worry about being kept on
"straight and narrow path
of reason," particularly when they're implying I'm trying to mislead them,
but mostly
because most things are complicated and certainly there are all sorts of
grey in the Arab-
Israeli conflict. >>
I believe that, in not knowing Jane, you've mistaken what she meant
by her use of the term "straight and narrow path of reason". Heck, she's even
agreed, in principle, with things I've posted here before not related to
this particular subject, which demonstrates that she keeps a more open mind on
many of the subjects discussed on CCN then some folks. I doubt she meant to
imply her mind might be closed to other views on this, just that she usually
tends to keep a rationale air about things and not be overwhelmed emotionally
on most subjects.
I tend to sway more towards the Israeli side of things on many of
the happenings over there strictly from the viewpoint that their response to
many of the acts perpetrated against them are muted in comparison to what their
true capabilities would allow them to do..... and are justified responses to
acts done (or attempted) against them. I also think that much of the stuff
being said about them is kinda like a loser in Vegas wanting his money back
after losing the rent at the tables. If ya can't afford to lose it, don't play
the game.
The Arab countries took their best shot (at the time) against Israel
in '67 and have been trying to convince everyone since that what they did
lose then should now be given back. They seem to forget that they LOST in their
effort to wipe out Israel then and losing a war that you start has
consequences..... you don't get all the marbles back that were marked as yours when
you lose. If you weren't willing to lose those marbles you shouldn't have
gotten into the game to begin with.
I'm also glad that there now appears to be someone else willing to
take over my spot as a "serial" poster that will likely incur the wrath of
some. The mantle is willingly passed
Dave Becker
TT23- There's no such thing as too much chain......
2a. Re: stein Posted by: "Paul Baren" pbaren2@optonline.net pbaren2 Date: Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:48 pm ((PST))
Nora If you know how to block a person from coming to my chat page-- please let me know Paul Baren
Original Message
From: Nora Prentice To: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 10:45 AM Subject: RE: [cornwall_community_network] Re: stein
spam. I tell you. spam.
Phyllis Nauts
> > Who is Kgs59? > Phyllis Nauts >
Original Message
> From: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf Of kgs59 > Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 4:32 AM > To: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [cornwall_community_network] Re: stein > > I don't understand why the contribution of serious > minded, factual > material would bother you? If it's truth you're > after why not at least > consider what Stein is offering? > > >
In cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com, > Paul Baren >
2b. Re: stein Posted by: "alansteinct" a.stein@snet.net alansteinct Date: Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:12 pm ((PST))
Whether or not I am a member of the Cornwall community is a matter of opinion. From my perspective, as president of a statewide organization promoting responsibility in Middle East reporting, I feel I'm a member of every community in Connecticut. I suspect some who aren't interested in responsible Middle East reporting may have a differing opinion.
My father also spent a considerable amount of time nearby, in Falls Village, at folk dance camps. Some might say that made our family part of the community. Again, others might disagree.
On the other hand, if people agreed with my messages, they probably wouldn't care. The real question for you is whether or not to kill the messenger--me.
Counting this message, I've posted fourteen messages to this forum, all in reaction to other messages and, except for this one, they've primarily dealt factually with the Arab- Israeli conflict.
There have been thirty-seven messages posted by others, overwhelmingly hostile, a number of them crossing the line into the sort of personal attack that's theoretically impermissible here. None have dealt with the issues I've brought up concerning the Arab- Israeli conflict; none have even attempted to refute any of the points I've made. (Admittedly, that would be difficult, since all my points have been valid.)
Essentially, these posts have amounted to an attempt to silence any pro-Israel arguments, which is rather hypocritical given the way some of the posts falsely claim supporters of Israel try to silence any real debate on the Arab-Israeli conflict.
Regarding your saying "I'm afraid that if you are not a member of our Community staying quiet 'as long as others refrain from lies and distortions regarding the Arab-Israeli conflict' is not enough since there are frequent postings of what you would probably consider lies:" Distortions may be a matter of opinion, but lies are not. Some may deny they have lied, but that merely compounds the offense.
For example, in Jimmy Carter's disgraceful book, which contrary to various sarcastic remarks is one I read carefully, the amount of bias is a matter of opinion but the numerous factual errors are not.
Here's just one example: On page 57, Carter writes "The 1949 armistice demarcation lines became the borders of the new nation of Israel and were accepted by Israel and the United States, and recognized by the United Nations."
It is incontrovertible fact that those lines never "became the borders;" indeed, the armistice agreements themselves make it crystal clear they were not only not to become borders, but were not to even prejudice the determination of borders. Article VI, Paragraph 9 of the agreement between Israel and Jordan reads "The Armistice Demarcation Lines defined in articles V and VI of this Agreement are agreed upon by the Parties without prejudice to future territorial settlements or boundary lines or to claims of either Party relating thereto." Each armistice agreement contained similar language.
While the reasons for the former president's lying about the armistice lines being borders are matters for speculation, that he lied about them, and about many other items, is a simple fact.
In any event, if you decide to use your power as moderator to silence my balancing voice, I would encourage those residents who have been intimidated to not let themselves be browbeaten. There are numerous sources of reliable information which can be used as resources to combat the lies and distortions endemic here. Some are mentioned on the PRIMER web site
Alan Stein
Hendon Chubb wrote:
I'm still not clear whether you are in some sense a member of the Cornwall community. If you are, more power to you. If you're not, and are simply using CCN as a forum for expressions of your views on the Israel/Palestine problem, then reactions so far (email and spoken) to my question of whether you should continue to be a member are tending to the notion that you don't belong in the CCN group, although I'm eager for more responses. I'm afraid that if you are not a member of our Community staying quiet "as long as others refrain from lies and distortions regarding the Arab-Israeli conflict" is not enough since there are frequent postings of what you would probably consider lies.
You didn't mention in your original posting that you had been asked to express your views by a Cornwall resident. If this is so, you could share your view with that person and allow her/him to use them as a basis for postings.
2c. Re: Posted by: "Nora Prentice" norapren@yahoo.com norapren Date: Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:38 pm ((PST))
Paul, ..you just put your lips together and blow.....(at least according to lauren bacall).
seriously - you should have a spam or junk option somehwere in your email server. check the mail/optonline page carefully. it is there.
Paul Baren
> Nora > If you know how to block a person from coming to my > chat page-- please let me know > Paul Baren > >
Original Message
> From: Nora Prentice > To: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 10:45 AM > Subject: RE: [cornwall_community_network] Re: > stein > > > spam. I tell you. spam. > >
Phyllis Nauts
Original Message
> > From: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com > > > [mailto:cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com] > > On Behalf Of kgs59 > > Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 4:32 AM > > To: cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [cornwall_community_network] Re: stein > > > > I don't understand why the contribution of > serious > > minded, factual > > material would bother you? If it's truth you're > > after why not at least > > consider what Stein is offering? > > > > > >
In > cornwall_community_network@yahoogroups.com, > > Paul Baren > >
2d. Re: stein Posted by: "Mr Marshall Miles" mmiles_06039@yahoo.com mmiles_06039 Date: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:15 am ((PST))
Yes! A breath of fresh air and common sense! Enough.
Marshall Miles
Anne Baren
> I do think we should not have to wade through the > postings of Mr. Stein > and Gale Toensing, both of whom seem to use > CNN for one purpose only - to advance their > political views. The > Israel-Palestinian conflict is certainly of interest > to most of us, but > there are plenty of reasoned books and articles for > us to delve into if > we want to learn more. I think CNN should be a forum > for a variety of > topics by "year-round and weekend residents of > Cornwall, people who live > in the nearby communities in the Northwest Corner > and from anyone else > who loves and values Cornwall" > Anne Baren
stein
Re: [cornwall_community_network] stein
Yes! A breath of fresh air and common sense! Enough.
Marshall Miles --- Anne Baren
> I do think we should not have to wade through the > postings of Mr. Stein > and Gale Toensing, both of whom seem to use > CNN for one purpose only - to advance their > political views. The > Israel-Palestinian conflict is certainly of interest > to most of us, but > there are plenty of reasoned books and articles for > us to delve into if > we want to learn more. I think CNN should be a forum > for a variety of > topics by "year-round and weekend residents of > Cornwall, people who live > in the nearby communities in the Northwest Corner > and from anyone else > who loves and values Cornwal."
> Anne Baren >
stein Re: [cornwall_community_network] Re: stein
Alan:
You know what I always say: In a world void of anti-Semitism, the War Against Israel could not possibly exist.
Regards,
TINSC
Re: [cornwall_community_network] Re: stein
Dear TINSC (whoever you are), is it possible in your world that a person can criticize Israeli policies without being an antisemite?
JohnM
K Green:
Re: [cornwall_community_network] ....without
And my reply to that:
In a world void of religion, wars could not possibly exist.
Or could they?????
Kate Green
Re: [cornwall_community_network] Re: stein
John and All, I checked the membership list again when I saw this unfamiliar signature....as I did with the mysterious and unsigned kgs59. Seems that this one, like kgs59, joined yesterday for the purpose of this conversation.....
Kim Gellatly
Report of bannings
After inviting and receiving comments, I have banned two individuals from posting on CCN on the grounds that they have not established the fact that they are members of the Cornwall Community.
Hendon Chubb Moderator
Anne Baren:
Report of bannings
Re: [cornwall_community_network] Report of bannings
Thanks, Hendon. I do think it makes sense for CCN to be used by those for whom Cornwall is more than a political bulletin board.
Now, if we can only encourage people to write more than just "thanks" or "I agree". Sometimes I find that as annoying as the endless meanderings or the multiple postings. However, there is always the delete option! Anne Baren
Report of bannings
Re: [cornwall_community_network] Report of bannings
I guess your banning has made for a raft of happy constituents. Hendy, you are clearly a great leader and a strong moderator. But it probably now means I won't get an answer to the question I posed in my most recent CCS email, and my ACLU side feels somewhat troubled.
JohnM
Report of bannings
Re: [cornwall_community_network] Report of bannings
No one claimed the CCS a democracy and I for one welcome the banning. Thank you, Mr. Chubb. Though I didn't bother reading most of the posts in question I could tell they were one (unrecognized) person's views and something I could tell was headed downhill fast. I moderate a few message boards myself and the tone is easily recognized. I understand this group as made up of Cornwall residents, full time or otherwise, and should stay that way. Astronauts, heretics and Zealots have their own clubs and we don't clutter up their message boards. Well, not much anyway.
Jim Young
Report of bannings
Re: [cornwall_community_network] Report of bannings
I don't think that what has gone on here on CCS the last few days is such a bad or boring thing. From my standpoint it was a marvelous example of what the AIPACers will throw at you if they don't approve of your attitude on the Middle East. JohnM
Re: Cornwall Community Network
I have received an email from Mr. Stein, which in fairness I'd like to post. Apparently if you ban someone on Yahoo (this is the first time I've done it) the person can't even read other people's messages. That seems stupid, but I don't know what I can do about it.
I do think Mr. Stein has a point about attacks. We often come far too close to attacking one another. I try to be a laissez-faire moderator so unless there's profanity I delete a message only when someone complains about it, but I think we should all make an effort to avoid attacks. When we are angry at someone's opinion, we should attack the opinion not the person.
Shalom/Salaam
Hendon Chubb Moderator
Alan Stein wrote:
Dear Mr. Stein, Nobody has supported your argument that you are really a member of the Cornwall community and the consensus is that you are not a qualified member. I have banned you from posting on Cornwall Community Network. Please feel free to log onto it at any time to read other people's messages.
Hendon Chubb Moderator I can't say I'm surprised. I did go to log in to read the messages of others and found that you not only banned me from posting, but have totally locked me out of the forum so that I am unable to even read anyone's messages.
I might also point out that, according to the description of the forum on its home page, residency in Cornwall or even the surrounding communities is not a requirement for membership in the forum. You have actually used an invalid reason for banning me. Although I have not researched it yet, I suspect you may be in violation of YahooGroups' rules.
To remind you, the following is the description on the forum's web site regarding membership: "This Discussion Page is designed to allow a free and open discussion of matters of interest to residents of the Town of Cornwall, CT. Comments are invited from year-round and weekend residents of Cornwall, people who live in the nearby communities in the Northwest Corner and from anyone else who loves and values Cornwall."
There is a ground rule you do have listed which was clearly violated: "No personal attacks, or profanity will be allowed."
A significant proportion of the messages posted were minimally veiled personal attacks on me; some were blatant personal attacks.. I personally don't really mind them, having some confidence that the fair minded people who are not part of the lynch mob recognize them for what they are, a reflection of the hatred of those making the attacks. They do, however, reflect poorly on both Cornwall and the forum.
The reality is this entire brouhaha has nothing to do with whether or not I'm a "member" of the nebulous Cornwall community; it has to do with people unwilling to participate in an honest and open discussion of the Arab-Israeli conflict, people unwilling to have their lies and distortions challenged.
So be it.
Shalom.
Paul Baren:
Re: Cornwall Community Network Re: [cornwall_community_network] Re: Cornwall Community Network
Hendon I say stick to the plan--its a Cornwall site and should stay that way. If we are not careful we will destroy the purpose and the benefit of this very valuable community asset. I hear from many people as it is that they will not have anything to do with it because some people use it for their own agenda and flood the site. If Mr. Stein can't read it at all--he can get stuff from his friend in Cornwall--he seems to have managed quite well without being a member.
Scoville Soule:
Report of bannings Re: [cornwall_community_network] Report of bannings
I agree with John. It's interesting to read extremists' views when they are diametrically opposesd to your own. It's a win win situation: Mr. Stein thinks he's changing opinions and the rest of us realize how right we were all along. (Not that the latter is something new.) In the process we get a shadowy glimpse of the extremist's mind. I've got to say, though, I've had about as much of Mr. Stein's mind as I want to have. Years ago there was a song entiitled "Oh, Johnny One Note". It disappeared from the charts in record time. I might look in on a few more of Mr. Stein's posts if I thought his piano had more than one note on his key board. Scoville
gunnwelles:
Report of bannings Re: Report of bannings
I have no problem with your move Hendon. We allowed the discussion to go long enough. Perhaps Mr. Stein would like to start his own Yahoo! chat site for the purpose of discussing and accusing what ever he wants. The fact that he now lumps an entire town into a "hate grou."
is what disturbs me more then anything else. I asked for an opinion on the book "Exile" to help me better understand and received no response. One note Johnny is the way it was and will continue to be.
If we started to discuss White supremacy groups and then were suddenly blindsided by an Aryan Nation posting on the CCN, I would expect the same response from the moderator. We may at times tread on insults but I haven't read a post that went so far over the line that I thought a banning should take place. It is sad to see that someone who has enjoyed reading our posts, would think that they could not log into the conversasion due to fear. I think of all the things we have discussed I am saddened that there are those who feel excluded on this site and choose to call in the outside guns to do their bidding. L.Welles
Report of bannings
In a message dated 11/19/07 10:38:56 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, JLM186@... writes:
But it probably now means I won't get an answer to the question I posed in my most recent CCS email, and my ACLU side feels somewhat troubled.
JohnM
I s'pose that you could always email Mr. Stein if you had some question of him.
Not to start another controversy, but wouldn't your ACLU side of this enter into a "banning" if it was enforced (or originated) by a governmental entity rather then a private group? I've always subscribed to the theory that the usual constitutional guarantees apply to what the gov't can & can't do in it's relationships with its citizens yet private groups and/or indviduals have more latitude by virtue of being private and not governmentally connected.
Dave Becker
Re: Cornwall Community Network
In a message dated 11/19/07 3:55:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, garlic@... writes:
I have received an email from Mr. Stein, which in fairness I'd like to post. Apparently if you ban someone on Yahoo (this is the first time I've done it) the person can't even read other people's messages. That seems stupid, but I don't know what I can do about it.I'm a moderator on several yahoo trucking groups. They way ours is (or was) setup, a new member is moderated until it's shown he didn't just sign on to spam. That is the biggest problem with newbies in those particular groups. Usually they post their spam once, it never sees the light of day on the group and they go off gently into the night. We can also put a current member on "moderated" or read only status if he gets crazy rulewise until he gets the picture again on acceptable rules following. As far as I know the list owner on those groups can put someone who violates the rules either on an instant ban or can allow him "read only" privileges. That might've changed and I'm not aware of it.
Any posts I've tossed from that group have all been from newbies and have all been spam attempts. The disadvantage, from a new legit poster's viewpoint, is that his posts, until he's put on regular status, don't show up until one of the moderators clears them....... which can take a couple days sometimes as all moderators are drivers around the world and none of them might have been online for several days.
CCN MIGHT find it necessary in the future to moderate new folks for the 1st several posts until they've demonstrated they're not crusaders, spammers or the like. Not a pleasant thought considering that, until the recent "controversy", we haven't seemed to had a problem........... other then my lengthy opinions contrary to some
Dave Becker